Ahem guys why don't we return to topic.
Is Jiang Zemin Dead?
- Thread starter AssassinsMace
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Red___Sword
Junior Member
That's right siege.
Red Moon, i.e., let's not getting political. Hope you "read" the #59 post I just made, I actually talk nothing political.
To topic, many blames Jiang, for what I described at #59 took place in time of his administration. No comments on "black and white", or "red or bule" here, just facts stating.
Red Moon, i.e., let's not getting political. Hope you "read" the #59 post I just made, I actually talk nothing political.
To topic, many blames Jiang, for what I described at #59 took place in time of his administration. No comments on "black and white", or "red or bule" here, just facts stating.
Red___Sword
Junior Member
Sorry man, you are out, they have.
Movie as well as documentry for TGD, are like 10 years ago and keeps pop out evey time someone feels a need to invest some money to earn some more, in the process, praise the CPC's feat.
Movie regarding Taikonut (correct my spelling?) just put on shelf these two years.
Edit:
I made last few words in the post too strong, allow me to edit -
I would like to emphasis the situation of which I mentioned at post #59, that - despite the country being called "reds" among your day to day life, the two movies mentioned above, are legally COMMERCIAL production with their own agenda which one way or another, fools or buys the respective authority, to being promoted into a prestigous production.
Simple words, the two movies are not hand made by some "office", but some subtle prestigous bunch. If you want to comment (if not bash) on China's propoganda effectivness, these two movie didn't fit your defination of "CPC homemade".
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solarz
Brigadier
The propaganda exercise is not in who actually made the film, but the fact that the CCP authorities endorse it. It doesn't matter if the movie was actually made by private enterprises, but the fact that the CCP promotes in on its 90th anniversary makes it a CCP propaganda exercise.
And the point I'm making with the TGD/Taikonaut movies is that such propaganda exercises are much more effective than making a movie about the building of the CCP.... yet again. I swear, I've been watching those kinds of movies when I was in second grade.
I stop following for a few days and I miss all the action.
Honestly Founding of a Republic and Founding of a Party is really no different from movies about the American Revolution, or movies about WWII or the Korean War. Is it propoganda? In a way it is, like any film on America's historic high points. No matter how you spin or interpret its fine print they're ultimately films that market nationalism to draw a crowd. They chose to make "propaganda" films on the 60th and 90th anniversaries precisely because it's so marketable, not purely because it's "propagandistic".
To address Red_Sword's point...could certain elements of those films still be interpreted to be subliminally critical? Of course. However, I think it's a little hasty to say that these films have a specific or intentional agenda. History is this amorphous shifting thing that's told and retold. It, by its very nature, finds truth not in a singular perspective, but the collection of multiple perspectives. That alone makes it difficult to say what is right or wrong, which can also cloud intention of how history is told. In the end it's a very complicated matter.
It could very well be that the makers of Founding of a Party/Republic (or if we go by your accusations their foreign backers) simply learned a different history or had a different perspective on things without necessarily having any intentions political or otherwise other than to make money. This is not an uncommon thing in film making. Just look at "Gone With the Wind", which romanticized the deep South during and after the US Civil War much to the dismay and criticisms of many. The film itself was ultimately selling a type of romance society, and not some subtle political message, even though there was a subtle political belief innate to the work. That's what happens when you have a certain view of history, and you're allowed to market that certain view freely. Of course, Founding of a Party/Republic may very have an intentional subtext to it (if I didn't misread you you're saying that subtext is China should develop in a way foreigners want?). That is besides the point though.
It was mentioned that commercialization of post-1978 films capitalized on social discontents to create instability, but could you really blame the films for that? Wouldn't that discontent happen with or without the films? In the end film was just one of many ways that these discontents were channeled. They didn't cause anything to change in society, nor really direct any movements. They merely facilitated what was at the time an inherently unstable point in Chinese society, and if commercial media didn't exist, something else would have facilitated that discontent. If commercialization really did introduce some undue influence on China's social conditions and political process though, I do not think that should necessarily count against commercial media. Part of living in a society with commercially free information is the ability to parse and interpret that media to form your own opinions and viewpoints. If the population was distinctly influenced by it, it was more telling of the population's lack of familiarity with free media at the time (in a sense, a lack of education and experience on how to absorb that information), than it was about the inherent dangers of commercial media (and maybe that was Red_Sword's point, that China's not yet ready for it, though the question then becomes "when will it be ready if you don't have a starting point?"). The best ways to deal with media that might implicitly or intentionally distribute a disagreeable view isn't to prevent or wish it didn't exist, but to express and share your opinions about it. For example, in the US, Fox News isn't dealt with by trying to remove it from the airwaves, but through a public expression of why Fox News is not news.
On a side note, all intense moments of social change exhibit instability. Removing commercial films in China post 1978 would not have removed or diminished sentiments of public anger. Commercial media goes where the money goes. If it went towards endorsing a view that was detrimental to stability, that is because those were already the most present views and thus the most marketable. In that sense, it must be iterated that they may have been an instrument of amplification, but they are not the sole or perhaps not even the most significant ones.
Anyways, back on topic.
While I agree with the general assessment, I think that assuming some conspiracy of the media reviving Kremlinology is going a tad far. I am a total news junkie, and Jiang's condition hasn't even been mentioned. When China is mentioned it is about the new trains, the potential Housing bubble, how China owns US debt, etc etc. There hasn't been a smidgen of news about Jiang (poor man seems almost completely forgotten here actually...). I think it's safe to say that this is a much better example of Hong Kong yellow journalism than it is an attempt to colour the impression of Chinese leadership.
solarz
Brigadier
The problem is, I don't think it *is* marketable, judging from online comments.
IMO, the most successful American propaganda movie is "Independence Day" (yes, the one with Will Smith). It appeals to the masses with lots of action and SFX, and it has the US saving the world from aliens.
China needs more of those kinds of movies!
Online comments talk about how horrible Michael Bay films are, but it's ultimately the money that counts. You think Pearl Harbor was a bad movie? It made a lot of money.
Online comments also don't reveal the full array of different opinions. My uncle is a CCP bureaucrat, but would probably love the film. My cousin (his son), is more academic and is probably not as enthusiastic about this stuff, but still went to watch Founding of a Republic. My parents think it's these movies are silly and wouldn't even waste time on them.They'd rather watch Let the Bullets Fly. Of them, my cousin only uses the internet once in a while, and only my dad is an avid forumer. There is a big niche this type of film will appeal to, just as there will be a big niche that it won't. My inclination is that if more negative comments really demonstrate a number difference (and it may not, the people who liked it simply may not feel as strongly about it as the people who didn't like it) the niche it captures to is not as avid about using the internet.
Finally, marketers don't need to appeal to everyone. Films target a reliable niche who just keep going back for more. To make money they don't need to have 51% of tepid support, but 5% of very enthusiastic support.
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Red___Sword
Junior Member
Gee... First, I think we should recommend the mods to move the movie related posts into another proper thread where talks about movies.
Second, with all due respect (this is not 客套, I do respect i.e.) - we should all blame i.e. for he started this "lefty" "righty" talks (which I didn't intent at first place) so that all the following posts became a contest of political correctness - "Is or is not, the movie being propaganda?"; "what content it propagandas?"; and "dose it effective?"... While i.e., I bet you hiding somewhere laughing at the mess you single handed. (joking)
I talked about Chinese society, and then, by the reality of Chinese social establishment, talking about "HOW some people gains, while divert the public discontent he created, to the unsuspecting suker CCP, not only let CCP taking the bullets for him, but also making money in the process, from the very dummy (CCP) he pushes to the public who are discontent". ( - BTW, I would like to emphasis again, no left or right, nor red or blue has been involved, throughout my previous posts)
Despite CCP, being "reds" and "commy" by its own, and despite it had have done some (suck) propaganda jobs to waving flags in the ultimate full spectrum compitition we called "cold war" - what I am talking here, is someone else. Those post-1978 newly-emerged-prestigious-class.
A good way to put things into perspect, while SDF mods please don't read too much into it:
Consider China being a forum, at its burst to expand, certain members became heavier than the rest ordinary ones who either have no time or no energy to make posts as they can make.
These prestigous members one day made a notorious BASHING POST, which bashing the forum and the people, in an underhanded way, by, making the post looks like simply wooing / boot-licking the modulators of the forum. (Bear in mind, they are actually bashing the forum and the modulators)
As self-rightious and as stupid and as blind as the modulators can get, not only they didn't deleted the bashing posts, ban those "usual faces" of the forum, but they also clicked the "like" button, and make sticky of the post, at the top of forum thread list.
Now, despite the modulators of the forum which called China (which is CCP) didn't doing a good job by spotting bashing post (which is the two prestigious movies) and make proper actions... being left or right, being red or blue, is not the point - the point is, the bashers (the movie investors and producers) achieved their goal (left the bashing post there, for the ordinary people to read, to feeling punked, and discontent over the administration of the forum even more, and better to hate the modulator ...), and made money out of this (their post being "liked" and being "sticky"), and get away.
_______________________________________________
Now, everyone please don't "read" too much into the hype I just made, please take some good thinking of this: HOW THE HELL, ONE CAN BASH THE CCP, WHILE CCP DIDN'T NOTICED, AND STILL LET ORDINARY AUDIENCE TAKE ATTENTION, THAT TRANSFER TO SOCIAL DISCONTENT (IF NOT HATE) ONTO CCP? - HOW the hell?
I can point out one of the rather obvious example, that presented in 建国大业 "The Founding of a Republic":
When Chairman Mao Zedong declared that "Chinese people have arised!", the movie, having this text-book-style subtitle: 占世界人口四分之一的中国人民，从此站起来了！ The Chinese people who consititute into 1/4 of the world's population, has arised!
But at the same time, the actual speech comes out of the actor's mouth, is this: 占人口四分之一的中国人民，从此站起来了！ 1/4 of the Chinese population, has arised!
When you are a CCP fat ass propaganda department officer who checkes the standard subtitle of the movie, you didn't feel anything wrong.
When you are a discontent ordinary people who spend 100 yuan to watch this movie, hears the "bold statement" the movie producers dare to make, you start to reflexing about the social reality in your day-to-day life and the unfair treatment you have sufferd throughout the years, exactly reasonable because ONLY 1/4 of the Chinese population were araised, you are not... You feeling social discontent even more, you simply naturally blames the CCP (who runs the country) being the a-hole.
_______________________________________
What is the point of "me being unhappy about these smartass movie producers"?
1. CCP didn't make the world heaven that's for sure, what CCP done during the pre-1978, has its own value though. Despite the famous cultrue-revolution's "counterweight", CCP liberated Chinese people from (simply) desperation. That's something can not be denied by smartass underhanded way.
2. Post-1978, social shifting, discontent surface, while CCP being suck at many things added to the "wrong" - It was, is, those smartass "prestigious class" doing anything as unfair as possible, to chest-thumbing the common people, while boot-licking the right authorities personnel.
Yes, CCP got much to blame, but people, don't let those smartass "prestigious class" a-holes escape. Especially not to shoot all the bullets to CCP as a whole "wronged entity", while those actually looters get away, by, always remind you how evil CCP is.
That two movies, being legal and "nothing wrong", bias the people's judgment.
Second, with all due respect (this is not 客套, I do respect i.e.) - we should all blame i.e. for he started this "lefty" "righty" talks (which I didn't intent at first place) so that all the following posts became a contest of political correctness - "Is or is not, the movie being propaganda?"; "what content it propagandas?"; and "dose it effective?"... While i.e., I bet you hiding somewhere laughing at the mess you single handed. (joking)
I talked about Chinese society, and then, by the reality of Chinese social establishment, talking about "HOW some people gains, while divert the public discontent he created, to the unsuspecting suker CCP, not only let CCP taking the bullets for him, but also making money in the process, from the very dummy (CCP) he pushes to the public who are discontent". ( - BTW, I would like to emphasis again, no left or right, nor red or blue has been involved, throughout my previous posts)
Despite CCP, being "reds" and "commy" by its own, and despite it had have done some (suck) propaganda jobs to waving flags in the ultimate full spectrum compitition we called "cold war" - what I am talking here, is someone else. Those post-1978 newly-emerged-prestigious-class.
A good way to put things into perspect, while SDF mods please don't read too much into it:
Consider China being a forum, at its burst to expand, certain members became heavier than the rest ordinary ones who either have no time or no energy to make posts as they can make.
These prestigous members one day made a notorious BASHING POST, which bashing the forum and the people, in an underhanded way, by, making the post looks like simply wooing / boot-licking the modulators of the forum. (Bear in mind, they are actually bashing the forum and the modulators)
As self-rightious and as stupid and as blind as the modulators can get, not only they didn't deleted the bashing posts, ban those "usual faces" of the forum, but they also clicked the "like" button, and make sticky of the post, at the top of forum thread list.
Now, despite the modulators of the forum which called China (which is CCP) didn't doing a good job by spotting bashing post (which is the two prestigious movies) and make proper actions... being left or right, being red or blue, is not the point - the point is, the bashers (the movie investors and producers) achieved their goal (left the bashing post there, for the ordinary people to read, to feeling punked, and discontent over the administration of the forum even more, and better to hate the modulator ...), and made money out of this (their post being "liked" and being "sticky"), and get away.
_______________________________________________
Now, everyone please don't "read" too much into the hype I just made, please take some good thinking of this: HOW THE HELL, ONE CAN BASH THE CCP, WHILE CCP DIDN'T NOTICED, AND STILL LET ORDINARY AUDIENCE TAKE ATTENTION, THAT TRANSFER TO SOCIAL DISCONTENT (IF NOT HATE) ONTO CCP? - HOW the hell?
I can point out one of the rather obvious example, that presented in 建国大业 "The Founding of a Republic":
When Chairman Mao Zedong declared that "Chinese people have arised!", the movie, having this text-book-style subtitle: 占世界人口四分之一的中国人民，从此站起来了！ The Chinese people who consititute into 1/4 of the world's population, has arised!
But at the same time, the actual speech comes out of the actor's mouth, is this: 占人口四分之一的中国人民，从此站起来了！ 1/4 of the Chinese population, has arised!
When you are a CCP fat ass propaganda department officer who checkes the standard subtitle of the movie, you didn't feel anything wrong.
When you are a discontent ordinary people who spend 100 yuan to watch this movie, hears the "bold statement" the movie producers dare to make, you start to reflexing about the social reality in your day-to-day life and the unfair treatment you have sufferd throughout the years, exactly reasonable because ONLY 1/4 of the Chinese population were araised, you are not... You feeling social discontent even more, you simply naturally blames the CCP (who runs the country) being the a-hole.
_______________________________________
What is the point of "me being unhappy about these smartass movie producers"?
1. CCP didn't make the world heaven that's for sure, what CCP done during the pre-1978, has its own value though. Despite the famous cultrue-revolution's "counterweight", CCP liberated Chinese people from (simply) desperation. That's something can not be denied by smartass underhanded way.
2. Post-1978, social shifting, discontent surface, while CCP being suck at many things added to the "wrong" - It was, is, those smartass "prestigious class" doing anything as unfair as possible, to chest-thumbing the common people, while boot-licking the right authorities personnel.
Yes, CCP got much to blame, but people, don't let those smartass "prestigious class" a-holes escape. Especially not to shoot all the bullets to CCP as a whole "wronged entity", while those actually looters get away, by, always remind you how evil CCP is.
That two movies, being legal and "nothing wrong", bias the people's judgment.
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