Invasion of Kinmen and Matsu Islands

cabbageman

New Member
If it's not signed, then it's not signed for a reason. China is really Pakistan's best friend, yet did China ever attack India during any Pakistan-India conflict? Russia and China relationship is not tighter.

Russia has no vital interests in Taiwan, not even a credibility issue. It would be extremely stupid for Russia to fight US just because there are some friendly descriptions in some declaration.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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If it's not signed, then it's not signed for a reason. China is really Pakistan's best friend, yet did China ever attack India during any Pakistan-India conflict? Russia and China relationship is not tighter.

What gives you the impression nothing has been signed:confused:
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I can't believe this disscussion is even going on...Every country that can, (besides MAYBE Japan) will stay away from a US-China conflict. What would any country have to gain? It is taking the risk of majorly pissing off one of the two richest and most powerful nations in the world? And for what? The chance that the one it backed will win a decisive victory? Then what? The country will get a pat on the head, that's all. Any sane person will stay out of the line of fire, and then jump on the bandwagon with the winner. Especially a country like Russia, which has so much to gain from neutrality. Russia would focus on bringing Eastern European countries back into its orbit while the US was "looking the other way". I think SampanViking is overestimating the importance of the Shanghai Cooperation Five. Russia would aid China, but not as overtly and provocatively as some have been suggesting. Look, no one wants WWIII.
 

SampanViking

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Hi Finn

Your right its a largely pointless and academic arguement. I am one that believes the threat of war has now receeded and that reconcilaition is now going to be the defining character of cross straights realtions.

There is a major economic conference between CCP and KMT in China next week with big hitters on either side in attendance. Expect more of this kind of thing for the next couple of years.

My only real point, is that if I am guilty of overestimating the importance of the SCO, then it is because I feel too many in the West underestimate it.

Similar such underestimations were major contributory factors in the out break of the last two world wars and so could be again.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Sorry for playing "The Devil's Advocate" here. I'm kind of testing the waters right now, so bear with me (or crack down if inappropriate) here.

I didn't make a new thread because I felt it might be easier to get away with something like this within an existing thread. Like I stated above, we'll see if this forum is ready for this kind of 'touchy' discussion (regarding Taiwan). From recent observations regarding the increase of maturity, I believe it is.

My question is this.

Isn't now an ideal time for China to attack Taiwan?

This has nothing to do with whether or not any of us WANT an incident like this to happen. Here are some of the arguments for it :

1) China currently owns a shitload of US treasury bonds. Is it possible that China could/would sell its treasuries and buy Euros instead? (Definitely killing the USD)

2) Given recent arguably submissive and pro-censorship actions of Yahoo, Microsoft (and up to some point, Google), would corporate America risk losing China as a business partner? (Cheap manufacturing, rapidly growing market)

3) It is highly possible the US populace is weary of foreign entanglements. Most Americans don't understand the history of China-Taiwan affairs. Hell, I'll bet the average Joe can't even locate Taiwan on a map.

4) Support for the current administration is at an all time low. Would Americans follow Bush to possible war with China?

5) Taiwan's closest (and nearly only) reliable military ally the U.S. is currently fighting 2 wars and arguably on the brink of a third with Iran.

Hate to shoot myself in the foot, but I guess I should provide my own rebuttal of this argument. Any military invasion of Taiwan would be in the order of air-sea-land war. Though China has made advances recently giving them undeniable superiority over the ROCN and arguably the ROCAF, they're still a long way off from being able to take on US CBGs. If this point (5) is a strong factor when contemplating invasion, the best time to take advantage of the U.S. being deployed would be 3 or 4 years ago, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq (because earlier a lot of time was spet patrolling the southern no-fly zone, something that is not necessary anymore). As long as anything does not happen with Iran, carriers will not be an essential factor for operations in Afghanistan or the Persian Gulf, freeing them up for a defense of Taiwan.

6) Having gone through 3 years of continuous deployment, there will arguably be probems with the condition of the US military. (Lack of routine maintenance because of being in battle, difficulty getting new gullible recruits given negative public coverage)

(And again, another self-inflicted wound.) Though the US Army and Marine Corps has been under continuous wear and tear, as far as I know most of the Navy and Air Force got back on schedule once the Iraq invasion was complete. If it got to the point that the U.S. needed to have substantial numbers of grunts on the ground that would probably mean that the Navy and Air Force had already gotten their butts kicked. I'd say the PRC isn't capable of that (yet).

Now given these risks (except for 5 and 6) to the U.S., would it be worth it to go to war against China protecting Taiwan? The above points I made above state that the near future (perhaps right after the Olympics) would be a favorable time to take Taiwan.

However, despite all that in my opinion Beijing won't take military action right now, or in the near future, simply because of a simple statement : time is on China's side. Even though situations are favorable now, it is arguable that they will only get better (for China) as time goes on. Which brings up the most flame-war provoking point now. Would it be better (from Taiwan's POV) to declare Independence right now? (I'm not suggesting it, I'm not saying that's what Taiwan wants or will do, but from a Taiwan Independence POV only)
 
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darth sidious

Banned Idiot
The_Zergling said:
Sorry for playing "The Devil's Advocate" here. I'm kind of testing the waters right now, so bear with me (or crack down if inappropriate) here.

I didn't make a new thread because I felt it might be easier to get away with something like this within an existing thread. Like I stated above, we'll see if this forum is ready for this kind of 'touchy' discussion (regarding Taiwan). From recent observations regarding the increase of maturity, I believe it is.

My question is this.

Isn't now an ideal time for China to attack Taiwan?

This has nothing to do with whether or not any of us WANT an incident like this to happen. Here are some of the arguments for it :

1) China currently owns a shitload of US treasury bonds. Is it possible that China could/would sell its treasuries and buy Euros instead? (Definitely killing the USD)

2) Given recent arguably submissive and pro-censorship actions of Yahoo, Microsoft (and up to some point, Google), would corporate America risk losing China as a business partner? (Cheap manufacturing, rapidly growing market)

3) It is highly possible the US populace is weary of foreign entanglements. Most Americans don't understand the history of China-Taiwan affairs. Hell, I'll bet the average Joe can't even locate Taiwan on a map.

4) Support for the current administration is at an all time low. Would Americans follow Bush to possible war with China?

5) Taiwan's closest (and nearly only) reliable military ally the U.S. is currently fighting 2 wars and arguably on the brink of a third with Iran.

Hate to shoot myself in the foot, but I guess I should provide my own rebuttal of this argument. Any military invasion of Taiwan would be in the order of air-sea-land war. Though China has made advances recently giving them undeniable superiority over the ROCN and arguably the ROCAF, they're still a long way off from being able to take on US CBGs. If this point (5) is a strong factor when contemplating invasion, the best time to take advantage of the U.S. being deployed would be 3 or 4 years ago, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq (because earlier a lot of time was spet patrolling the southern no-fly zone, something that is not necessary anymore). As long as anything does not happen with Iran, carriers will not be an essential factor for operations in Afghanistan or the Persian Gulf, freeing them up for a defense of Taiwan.

6) Having gone through 3 years of continuous deployment, there will arguably be probems with the condition of the US military. (Lack of routine maintenance because of being in battle, difficulty getting new gullible recruits given negative public coverage)

(And again, another self-inflicted wound.) Though the US Army and Marine Corps has been under continuous wear and tear, as far as I know most of the Navy and Air Force got back on schedule once the Iraq invasion was complete. If it got to the point that the U.S. needed to have substantial numbers of grunts on the ground that would probably mean that the Navy and Air Force had already gotten their butts kicked. I'd say the PRC isn't capable of that (yet).

Now given these risks (except for 5 and 6) to the U.S., would it be worth it to go to war against China protecting Taiwan? The above points I made above state that the near future (perhaps right after the Olympics) would be a favorable time to take Taiwan.

However, despite all that in my opinion Beijing won't take military action right now, or in the near future, simply because of a simple statement : time is on China's side. Even though situations are favorable now, it is arguable that they will only get better (for China) as time goes on. Which brings up the most flame-war provoking point now. Would it be better (from Taiwan's POV) to declare Independence right now? (I'm not suggesting it, I'm not saying that's what Taiwan wants or will do, but from a Taiwan Independence POV only)

why invade now? America is not going to get out off Iraq any time soon
as time pass the increase in bejing's favour china will own even more T-bonds the chinese army will become even more powerful. Later on even if America wants to help taiwan they may notbe able to do so becomes of ties to china econoemicaly and losses that they will suffer ina war with china.

attacking taiwan now may hinder china's grwoing tade and industry it also wont be good for the image of china's peaceful rise.
 

KYli

Brigadier
The_Zergling said:
Sorry for playing "The Devil's Advocate" here. I'm kind of testing the waters right now, so bear with me (or crack down if inappropriate) here.
Great Post THE_Zergling.

IIsn't now an ideal time for China to attack Taiwan?
Honestly, in military point of view, I would say no.
1) China currently owns a shitload of US treasury bonds. Is it possible that China could/would sell its treasuries and buy Euros instead? (Definitely killing the USD)
China could do that, but it is hard to say how much damage it will have in US. And you have to remember any Chinese action will definite counter by US reaction. So both China and US will suffer greatly, but probably both countries could surivive this incident.
2) Given recent arguably submissive and pro-censorship actions of Yahoo, Microsoft (and up to some point, Google), would corporate America risk losing China as a business partner? (Cheap manufacturing, rapidly growing market)
Undoubtfully, US corporation will have great interest to expand into China, and they will probably have to amend their stance or soften their altitude over certain issues, but in time of conflict I seriously doubt they will try to interfere this kind of situation.
3) It is highly possible the US populace is weary of foreign entanglements. Most Americans don't understand the history of China-Taiwan affairs. Hell, I'll bet the average Joe can't even locate Taiwan on a map.
That is probably true:D .
4) Support for the current administration is at an all time low. Would Americans follow Bush to possible war with China?
This will be hard to say. Americans probably would not want to have war with China, but this can be change easily by propaganda.
5) Taiwan's closest (and nearly only) reliable military ally the U.S. is currently fighting 2 wars and arguably on the brink of a third with Iran.
Oh well US would have hard time if they are going to attack Iran, I think if China attack at this certain of time. US might not be capable of rapid response, this in term could favor China to have victory before US' interfere.

Hate to shoot myself in the foot, but I guess I should provide my own rebuttal of this argument. Any military invasion of Taiwan would be in the order of air-sea-land war. Though China has made advances recently giving them undeniable superiority over the ROCN and arguably the ROCAF, they're still a long way off from being able to take on US CBGs. If this point (5) is a strong factor when contemplating invasion, the best time to take advantage of the U.S. being deployed would be 3 or 4 years ago, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq (because earlier a lot of time was spet patrolling the southern no-fly zone, something that is not necessary anymore). As long as anything does not happen with Iran, carriers will not be an essential factor for operations in Afghanistan or the Persian Gulf, freeing them up for a defense of Taiwan.
True, I don't think China's ability to take Taiwan is as convince as many people think. Their over all military advantages are just not great.
6) Having gone through 3 years of continuous deployment, there will arguably be probems with the condition of the US military. (Lack of routine maintenance because of being in battle, difficulty getting new gullible recruits given negative public coverage)
This might be disadvantage for US, but let look it at other way around. After all the deployment, the US trooops will have much more experience and readiness than China. So this factor might also be a plus for US.
(And again, another self-inflicted wound.) Though the US Army and Marine Corps has been under continuous wear and tear, as far as I know most of the Navy and Air Force got back on schedule once the Iraq invasion was complete. If it got to the point that the U.S. needed to have substantial numbers of grunts on the ground that would probably mean that the Navy and Air Force had already gotten their butts kicked. I'd say the PRC isn't capable of that (yet).
No arguement here:) .:)
Now given these risks (except for 5 and 6) to the U.S., would it be worth it to go to war against China protecting Taiwan? The above points I made above state that the near future (perhaps right after the Olympics) would be a favorable time to take Taiwan.
It is never a good idea and worth to fight a country as powerful as China, but War is never rational thing. And politicals, ideology, nationalists and arrogrant will always have great extent of influence over logic, countries will always do things not out of reasons but their interest.
However, despite all that in my opinion Beijing won't take military action right now, or in the near future, simply because of a simple statement : time is on China's side. Even though situations are favorable now, it is arguable that they will only get better (for China) as time goes on. Which brings up the most flame-war provoking point now. Would it be better (from Taiwan's POV) to declare Independence right now? (I'm not suggesting it, I'm not saying that's what Taiwan wants or will do, but from a Taiwan Independence POV only)
Times is on China's side, and if Taiwan don't declare independent now and near future. They might find it will be hard for them to do anything else. But I think Taiwanese might have different opinion on the matter years later, maybe just maybe there would be lot more people that are willing to favor the unification. BTW eventhrough we might be agree or disagree on many matters, but I do think you are very intelligent and reasonable person. So don't be afraid to ask any provoking question, as long as your intention is good.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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I would have to say I think it would a disaster for China not resort to war - not militarily, but politically and would undermine all the hard work China has put in to developing its very effective Regional Diplomacy over the last few years.

The PRC has I believe terminally undermined the Presidency of Mr Chen and the Independance cause, by cordial dealings with the KMT and other Pan Blue Parties, in combination with a robust International diplomacy with regards cross straits issues.

The reason why war would be a disaster, is because I perceive the PRC attempting the same strategy with a much bigger fish - Japan.

We see the same hardball attitude towards the government of Mr Koizumi, whilst the red carpet is laid out for his Political opponents. In both the Cases of Taiwan and Japan, the PRC carefully distinguishes between the ruling party and the national populations at large.

The aim of the PRC is quite clear, to prove it has the diplomatic and economic (military up its sleave of course) clout to remove regional governments it dislikes and replace them with ones that are more amenable. If it is able to do this to both Japan and Taiwan, there will be no government in the region that would dare to openly oppose China and side with its opponents in the greater world.

The PRC understands the true meaning of power is far more that unsubtle force and that such a strategy would enhance its Superpower aspirations far more than a show of Military might.
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
Well, in the context of an attack, I think the issue is a matter of time. in that respect I think China can win righ now. They currently have the ability to transport 96 troops with one transport to Taiwan in at most half an hour. A substantial air invasion is a possibility and there is precedence for such an operation and a successful one. World War II the invasion of Sicily was first fought largely by airborne troops. There is one suitable area on the coast for an amphibious invasion. China actually can go pretty far in the straits before suspicion's arise. In fact, if the ROCAF goes after the few radar installations capable of seeing far into Chinese airspace and all of the Taiwn Straits they can further enchance their ability to surprise Taiwan.

As far as satellites are concerned, they pass over every two hours as I recall, maybe some pass over sooner and I don't know which, if any, pass over at night.

That's really the issue. China just has ot get rid of Taiwan's warning ability. Using the YJ-91/Kh-31P would allow China to take out the radars from well beyond the Middle Line. Avoiding satellites would only be a matter of timing and passing over at night would weaken the ability to detect movements. If China can safely operate at night without observance they would be able to defeat Taiwan. Half of the F-16s are blocked by Taiwan's mountain ranges and the others are put in the middle of Taiwan far from the population centers. They may get there in time to attack any PLAAF fighters, but not engage them. Taipei is protected only by the PAC-2s plus air support from Mirages and F-5s. In other words, China could probably not worry about interceptors and would only have to be concerned about the air defenses, which can't intercept cruise missiles. In other words the PAC-2s could be taken out easily as long as fighters fly low and use LACMs.

It's possible for China to be victorious here.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Vlad Plasmius said:
In fact, if the ROCAF goes after the few radar installations capable of seeing far into Chinese airspace and all of the Taiwn Straits they can further enchance their ability to surprise Taiwan.

Taipei is protected only by the PAC-2s plus air support from Mirages and F-5s. In other words, China could probably not worry about interceptors and would only have to be concerned about the air defenses, which can't intercept cruise missiles. In other words the PAC-2s could be taken out easily as long as fighters fly low and use LACMs.

I don't know if you've noticed it, but you tend to get PLAAF and ROCAF mixed up a little... But anyway...

No debate regarding early warning. Knowing your opponent's next move is always important in any conflict.

In the meantime I disagree with you regarding distance hindering the response times of F-16s. While several important squadrons of F-16s are based at Hualien, on the Eastern coast of Taiwan (it's called "Alamo" by the Taiwanese) there are also several fighter squadrons based at Chiayi, which is sort of southwest, but is relatively closed to Kaoshiung, which is undeniably a big population center.

Other major cities, such as Taichung and Taipei all have fighter squadrons in the vicinity, F-CK-1s from Ching-Chuan Kang near Taichung (In fact they used to fly over my home in Taiwan all the time), Taoyuan Air Command composed of F-5s to defend Taipei, complemented by Mirage 2000s based in Hsinchu, which is in the arguably best position to support both Taipei and Taichung. Obviously, the effectiveness of the ROCAF has yet to be proven, but it's indisputable that the fighters are within effective range.

Sampanviking said:
The PRC has I believe terminally undermined the Presidency of Mr Chen and the Independance cause, by cordial dealings with the KMT and other Pan Blue Parties, in combination with a robust International diplomacy with regards cross straits issues.

China's stance towards Taiwan is indeed something of interest. To me, one of the reasons the situation has gotten to the absurdity of today is because Beijing didn't react accordingly or fast enough when Taiwan began to walk/stumble towards democracy. Some people like to point out that Beijing's lobbing of missiles in 1996 was a symbol of the CCP's irrational militancy.

Whilst that may be true, it shouldn't be forgotten that 1996 was the first time that the ROC even had democratic elections. Beijing didn't fully understand that the targets of its propoganda (and missiles) was no longer the authoritarian dictatorship that dictated terms for the Taiwanese public, but instead 23 million individual "laobaixing" who probably didn't take kindly to being threatened.

Now, after 8 years (and a couple of DPP presidential election victories) Beijing finally "gets it", to some extent. What makes unification hard is that on one side we gradually start seeing the growth of some blinded Taiwanese nationalists who see the whole situation as a win-lose situation. On the other hand, threats and condescension from the PRC continues to this day. (increase of missiles ever year, unilateral threat to use force) However, despite this it is still recognizable that Beijing has changed tactics dramatically over the past few years.

I'm not doubting the friendly attitude many Chinese have toward Taiwan, but there's a whole bureaucracy that's sending a different message. But at least the CCP is changing tactics to try to "win the hearts and minds" of the Taiwanese people, what with issues like agriculture, trade, open flights, and Pandas. Whether or not it will work remains to be seen if Beijing does not renounce the use of force.

On a slightly off topic issue, personally I think that 100 years from now the notion of "Nationalism" will join the ranks of other "isms", prejudice, and stereotyping. Love for one's country is good and all, but hell, why should it stop at the border? ^_^

And a big thanks to everyone for hearing me out. Maybe one day we'll see the Sticky Announcement changed.
 
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