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steel21

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ya @Deino could be this one have to wait till early February for the Aero India.
View attachment 67873
Indians are going to pay through the nose for western and particularly US components like the F-414, even then, this thing will have a 30% performance deficit to F35, and probably cost 30-50% more.

It will never be a contender against China FC-31 in both performance nor value, and US will make damn fucking sure it will not eat into F-35's market.

Prepare to be fleeced!
 

KampfAlwin

Junior Member
Registered Member
Indians are going to pay through the nose for western and particularly US components like the F-414, even then, this thing will have a 30% performance deficit to F35, and probably cost 30-50% more.

It will never be a contender against China FC-31 in both performance nor value, and US will make damn fucking sure it will not eat into F-35's market.

Prepare to be fleeced!
Unless India is allowed to buy F35s or Su-57s, this is the only way they can acquire 5th gen jets without having to wait decades until they have more options in the market.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hold up there, bud. Only Chinese are allowed to be accused of copying.

Cor, that send shivers down my spine. I thought for one minute there our AFB is back when I heard the word 'BUD'. Lol

@KampfAlwin

"Unless India is allowed to buy F35s or Su-57s, this is the only way they can acquire 5th gen jets without having to wait decades until they have more options in the market."

Either way, they are still going have to wait decades.
 
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steel21

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why do you think so?
Especially against this particular one?
FMS is a huge business, and nobody is dumb enough to sell you parts so you can take their market share for assembled systems.

Assembled systems comes with a shit-ton of political leverage and sustained contracts in supply chain and training pipeline.

Subcomponents like the F-414 cannot apply the same costs. Ask yourself, which will cost more? Training some mechanics, or training the fighter pilot? Then ask yourself, can a mechanic ever arise to the position of chief of the air force? Fighter pilots make it to flag grade all the time.

So that means foreign and particularly US suppliers will sell their ware to the Indians under the formula of cost + profit + opportunity cost x graft = fly away price

Even at those prices, the suppliers are likely to de-tune the component so that it never comes close to their domestic implementation.

Ultimately, US would much rather the Indians buy F-35 at hyper inflated prices, but they are deftly afraid of F-35 tech being stolen by Indians or Russian consultants working on their SU-30MKi next to Indian F-35s. Beside, if you can pay the Indians to cheat their own people, you can certainly pay the Indians to cheat the Americans.

CONCLUSION:
Indian AMCA will be less capable, late on delivery (it's fucking hard to make mature systems from different nations and vendors fully integrate), and cost a fuck-ton, the proverbial white elephant.


If you got another scenario, lets hear it.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Isn't it just the engines? AMCA doesn't have any other foreign comoonents to my knowledge.
Proly delays will force them to integrate foreign parts. It’s like their project 15b destroyer where they now have to buy the main cannon from the US because of delays.

Go get married, raise a kid, wait till they graduate from PhD, then come back here and check if India did it.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Actually the biggest hurdles are the engines. I think that the reason India is also using DAI (despite some Indians mocking it in the past) is for weight reduction related reasons. The best medium engines available are F-414 and EJ-200, but I think they can only serve as a stop gag measure.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
So that means foreign and particularly US suppliers will sell their ware to the Indians under the formula of cost + profit + opportunity cost x graft = fly away price
1, F-414 is widely exported for such independent fighter programs around the world, AMCA isn't overly special here. It isn't even first Indian program using it (there are bloody 3 of them).
2, F-414 isn't exactly a cutting edge engine. At the same time, India copying it is unlikely. Copying modern engines just doesn't work all that well, China is a nice example here. Nothing to lose here, only some money to make.
3, AMCA, as far as I understand, is aimed at domestic role first. Even more so than contemporary KFX. No one judges J-20 for lack of export orders, what's the problem here?
4, FC-31 doesn't fly on domestic engine either...

In the end, currently it's either buy or remain on ground for India.
Not like there is any choice.
 

steel21

Junior Member
Registered Member
1, F-414 is widely exported for such independent fighter programs around the world, AMCA isn't overly special here. It isn't even first Indian program using it (there are bloody 3 of them).
2, F-414 isn't exactly a cutting edge engine. At the same time, India copying it is unlikely. Copying modern engines just doesn't work all that well, China is a nice example here. Nothing to lose here, only some money to make.
3, AMCA, as far as I understand, is aimed at domestic role first. Even more so than contemporary KFX. No one judges J-20 for lack of export orders, what's the problem here?
4, FC-31 doesn't fly on domestic engine either...

In the end, currently it's either buy or remain on ground for India.
Not like there is any choice.
Mark my words, by the time FC-31 is adopted, it will have a domestic engine. Sure it might have a RD-93, but that's with The Russians on board as a partner, and not merely as a supplier.

Sure, the only large component you see now is the F-414, but I'll bet a lot of the electronics and navigation will be foreign sourced. BTW, since India doesn't have its own GPS and Beidou, what will it use?

Don't kid yourself, copying is only fucking way to go. The going might have been tough for WS-15, but if the Chinese had not started out with WS-10 and its granddy: CFM-56, it would've taken then even more time. There is only so many ways to compress air, you might as well take from a mature design. On the other hand, if the Indians want to blaze their own path, you will know they are really just trying to drag out the program for more $$$$.

Nobody build a gen 5 bird for domestic only. Everyone would like to export a little to spread out the cost as much as possible.

There is a 3 choice, not building the thing and build out India's industry one step at time. Indians are too eager to promise the moon and trying to quantum leap evolution. History and experience has shown that they are successful at squandering Indian tax payer funds and fucking up, decade after decade.

They really should take a page from Deng, and lay low for 20 years, focus on catching the last train on the globalization express. India has no real existential threat, just make peace with Pakistan and work in modernizing domestic industries first.
 
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