Was it even considered?
Iirc it was always hot/cold split without any localization demands.
International split itself was the goal.
Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
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Iirc it was always hot/cold split without any localization demands.
International split itself was the goal.
Deino, they are quoting the Indian ambassador to France!
If he believes this then why won't the French?
The power of Indian belief is beyond comprehension.
We've had this discussion a few pages back.
My view is that India doesn't really have any real option except France. This is because A) China is a non-starter B) The US is unlikely to share anything, or even allow local production and C) Russia is in a much stronger bargaining position today than in 2015.
Yes, France is the weakest, but they are also the best fit geopolitically for India precisely for this reason. It's paradoxical. If France resists giving too much ToT, India knows that any other option (US or Russia) is unlikely to give anything better. I doubt the UK is a serious player in these discussions. So that also gives France less of an incentive to open up precisely because it knows that India only has worse options.
India now clearly reacts to Sindoor though. Notice where fast tracked foreign procurement/new orders go: emergency purchase of Rampage (i.e. longer/safe stand off; AASM/Spice isn't "safe" any more, and is more of a stand-in), S-400/500(aka more medium/long range SAM/increased ABM). I.e. all of the most obvious Indian needs of Sindoor, points where they either clearly need 'more', or things worked.
Finally Su-57s sneaked in.
I.e. normally India doesn't do procurement based on immediate threat/needs, but after encounters with Pakistan, it changes every time. One can absolutely dispute whether Rafale disgraced itself or no; i am of opinion that it didn't(it performed in this situation the way which should be expected from this particular platform): ambushes happen, unsuccesful engagements happen, fighters are meant to be lost in combat, they aren't revered statuettes of gods. Ultimately, Indians exposed their Rafales to the only situation where they just needed external protection.
But what's certain - and certain beyond 1st day, - is that Rafale as is didn't produce superiority. Just like 1st batch of 36 Rafales after Balakot, India now needs higher level aircraft. So probably Pakistan, though in the future.
The Rafale is an overpriced piece of crap. As simple as that. It has no internal fuel to speak of, you need to carry external tanks for basically all missions or you will have neither range nor loiter time, and the radome in it is tiny so the radar is shit.
The MiG-35 has better specs than the Rafale for like a third the price. The Rafale costs more than a Su-57.
The MiG-35 has better specs than the Rafale for like a third the price. The Rafale costs more than a Su-57.
That's a bit harsh on the most successful 4.5 gen in the world. Which doesn't even come with American goodwill...
It only sells because of CAATSA. Well and pushovers like India.
For whatever reason Dassault did not export a single aircraft for like a decade while the Flankers sold like hotcakes. It only started sales after CAATSA.
Maybe Russian aircraft weren't quite available in 2016-24 (though they still were brought),
Still, everyone else was, including F-35. But Rafale eats almost all competitive deals, including within Europe. Compare it with Eurofighter, which after Austria(bribe) only gets captive market, ME(procurement of goodwill), and Turkey(which can't buy Rafale).
India certainly not a pushover, as they could order anyone.
Just your previous sentence:
Overpriced - sure, but this is matched with capability set. Developed AA capability, fully developed ground strike(stand in, stand off).
Lack of internal fuel doesn't truly matter, when it has full freedom of carrying heavy fuel tanks; this way, a lighter, more economical aircraft carry hellova fuel.
Radome was a design choice - and as french were fast to update radar in early 2010s, it wasn't really much of a downside.
Mig-35 doesn't have full range of munitions (i.e. capabilities), can't match range with munitions carrying capability (different drop tank configuration), and doesn't have some of key munitions overall.
Its targeting pod is optimistically damocles level, and only became available for orders very late(1.5 customers).
And its radar is still one from the 1990s, an an/apg-68 counterpart.
Lastly - why even bother; Indian mig-29UPGs are essentially Mig-35s in everything but airframe.
Su-57 only became available for actual orders recently, and is yet to be delivered.
Not if you use the AESA radar on the MiG-35. And the OLS-K has similar specs to the latest F-35 EOTS in terms of sensor quality. I don't know about integration into the aircraft.
Pray tell me which munition capability the Rafale has which the MiG-35 lacks.
As for the Eurofighter it had obsolete electronics and sensors, plus a limited weapons package until quite recently.
Pray tell me which munition capability the Rafale has which the MiG-35 lacks.
As for the Eurofighter it had obsolete electronics and sensors, plus a limited weapons package until quite recently.
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Can you order it? The only aircraft with Zhuk-AM is Mig own test aircraft.
(i heard that you can, but it's same state as captor-e in 2010s - looks like it exists, but in practice it doesn't).
OLS-K was a desperate attempt by Mig bureau to conjure some sort of container capability after sapsan failure. As soon as Mikoyan managed to get SPP onboard to produce T-220 - it died immediately with relief. (note that it's commercial initiative).
Yes, 101KS-P is probably more or less world level. It isn't available outside of su-57 platform.
And comparing it to EOTS is (1)huge overstatement, and (2)EOTS isn't world level capability, as it can't be updated like pods. It's a very small agile mwir sensor with minimal mirror and not exactly world leading matrix (it's worse than OLS-35, and OLS-35 is at most mediocre/just enough even within its own class). Adding insult to the injury - while Mig, again, outdid rest of Russia with ersatz HMD - it's only good when compared internally.
Yes, there's, again, the su-57 helmet (which is more or less world level; nothing world beating, but alright). It isn't available outside of su-57 platform.
Speaking frankly, standard Russian optical sensors only work well as WVR air combat sensors. Which is what they built for, but expecting them to do ground target ID from 80km is probably somewhat of a stretch.
Modern guided tactical stand-off armament with range of weights and seekers. France covers all of it through AASM, Russian system is patchy and incomplete, and mig can't even lift upper parts of it (mig as is can't work with russian 1500kg munition range).
LACM - mig only carries a dualrole light ASCM(Kh-35U).
BVRAAM - mig was meant to carry R-37, but it doesn't. 180 is nice, but can Zhuk-M even serve its full range?
Migs were brought in 2010s, and brought quite a lot. But this happened either to save money, or because they have very nice swing stand off capability through Kh-35u(for countries like Egypt, which were denied proper ones).
India has slightly below 7 dozens of them(~120 with mig-29k), and while it could get this number to 100(150), it decided against it. Note, that ultimately most outstanding weapons of indian migs(which are probably best packed in the world - better than mig-29m2s) are kh-35u and...rampage. Which is anything but Russian.
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