Hong-Kong Protests

hijiki said:

It mostly wasn't about trying to overthrow the government with violance. There were still elections in HK for the legislature. But when it appears that mainland central government is passing regulations that reduce any possible legal path for influence politics, then some people react violently to the forcing of tightening control. Such as one thing offered was that governor could be elected but candidates have to be approved by the mainland central government before being elgible for running. Things like trigger a loss of faith in some people about maintaining 1 country 2 system and so the only way to react is violant and destruction. Naturally most of the democracy advocates in HK didn't support the destruction of much of HK. They encouraged protests and demonstrations. Some of the destruction carried was also partly a result of other HK issues such as housing expenses. The main drive for yhe demonstrations and protests was to get democracy sided politicians elected into the legislature. The number of those legislatures did increase in following tbe increase awareness about central mainland government influence that resulted from the 2014 umbrella protests. So very much the legal path towards protecting HKs level of autonomy was being pursued. But the mainland central government did not make clear in a trustful way that 1 country 2 system was going to be maintained. That is not necessarily an argument that 1 country 2 system must be protected for 100 years more and further more. HK has a very long history as part of China dynasty's so it is kind of strange for HK to be a separate system which only left to be that due to left over colony possession. But the mainland's tight government control is something that people not yet harmonized by it tend to want to avoid if at all possible. Quite likely if PRC government control was less then there would be less friction within HK and between HK and the mainland.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

It is natural for there to be people to want to hold on to greater autonomy and ability for freedom of expression. And so those kinds of people try to resists moves that increases government control. Is not only like that in China (liu Xiaobo for example, along with Hong Kong democracy advocates) but so in other countries typical found in the right/conservative wing of the spectrum. If more freedom of expression was allowed in the PRC, even if still keeping single party rule, I'd imagine different factions within tbe party could evolve and part of the faction line drawing could be along the lines of government control. And so even if Hong Kong's 1 country 2 system was to end, if thete was such room for factions to evolve, people like Liu Xiaobo or Agnes Chow would be in a less government control faction. I think that is a natural desire to exist in many people. But China probably has strong deskre for tight control because of bad memory of different party factions and civil war but also from yhe lasting legacy of tight control with the establishment of the CCP and Mao.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

It is natural for there to be people to want to hold on to greater autonomy and ability for freedom of expression. And so those kinds of people try to resists moves that increases government control. Is not only like that in China (liu Xiaobo for example, along with Hong Kong democracy advocates) but so in other countries typical found in the right/conservative wing of the spectrum. If more freedom of expression was allowed in the PRC, even if still keeping single party rule, I'd imagine different factions within tbe party could evolve and part of the faction line drawing could be along the lines of government control. And so even if Hong Kong's 1 country 2 system was to end, if thete was such room for factions to evolve, people like Liu Xiaobo or Agnes Chow would be in a less government control faction. I think that is a natural desire to exist in many people. But China probably has strong deskre for tight control because of bad memory of different party factions and civil war but also from yhe lasting legacy of tight control with the establishment of the CCP and Mao.

Click to expand...

Gatekeeper said:

I know what you're trying to say. But you have not even answer my only two points of my post.

Point 1, the way you wrote implies she is superior because she can speak Japanese.

Point 2, the only reason she is the "goddess of democracy" is because western countries is trying to promote it as such. When in reality she is nothing more than a puppet and a traitor.

As for the lengthy post of yours. I see others gave already rebutted your silly long post. I'll try and add my reply when I get back.

Click to expand...

daifo said:

What you are describing is what I also thought when i only randomly heard about the hk protest movements pre-2018. I actually was sorta on their side too when i thought it was all rosy. I don't live in hk, but from all the media (including theirs) , social media (of their), random supporters of theirs, i can only conclude it is a full on color revolution/terrorist movement now. Crushing it is the only option.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

Well, like any event, there is a timeline and a cause and reaction chain of events within the timeline. It was the fear of the extradition bill being a form of the mainland central government being able to further increase influence in HK politics. Demonstrations about that started in early June. Those demonstrations resulted in Lam only postponing the passing of the bill. That basically means that the bill is to remain and be passed anyway. So the demonstrations increased in size up to 2 million. But purely peaceful. Night demonstrations and face-offs with the HK police started in July as well as protesters blocking off some roads and interfering with some of the train mass transit. In mid August, the PLA Army moved units and parked them in the Shenzhen Bay Sports Center which is right next to HK. And by late August, white shirt Pro-mainland government gang groups were going around and beating the protesters with sticks. By early September, some protesters started getting more violent, doing things like making fire in the middle of the road. But by far and large, the bulk of the demonstrators were still doing mostly what they been doing in June or July.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

I'm just going to rely on others reading my posts rather then replying to your, sorry.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

It is natural for there to be people to want to hold on to greater autonomy and ability for freedom of expression. And so those kinds of people try to resists moves that increases government control. Is not only like that in China (liu Xiaobo for example, along with Hong Kong democracy advocates) but so in other countries typical found in the right/conservative wing of the spectrum. If more freedom of expression was allowed in the PRC, even if still keeping single party rule, I'd imagine different factions within tbe party could evolve and part of the faction line drawing could be along the lines of government control. And so even if Hong Kong's 1 country 2 system was to end, if thete was such room for factions to evolve, people like Liu Xiaobo or Agnes Chow would be in a less government control faction. I think that is a natural desire to exist in many people. But China probably has strong deskre for tight control because of bad memory of different party factions and civil war but also from yhe lasting legacy of tight control with the establishment of the CCP and Mao.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

It mostly wasn't about trying to overthrow the government with violance. There were still elections in HK for the legislature. But when it appears that mainland central government is passing regulations that reduce any possible legal path for influence politics, then some people react violently to the forcing of tightening control. Such as one thing offered was that governor could be elected but candidates have to be approved by the mainland central government before being elgible for running. Things like trigger a loss of faith in some people about maintaining 1 country 2 system and so the only way to react is violant and destruction. Naturally most of the democracy advocates in HK didn't support the destruction of much of HK. They encouraged protests and demonstrations. Some of the destruction carried was also partly a result of other HK issues such as housing expenses. The main drive for yhe demonstrations and protests was to get democracy sided politicians elected into the legislature. The number of those legislatures did increase in following tbe increase awareness about central mainland government influence that resulted from the 2014 umbrella protests. So very much the legal path towards protecting HKs level of autonomy was being pursued. But the mainland central government did not make clear in a trustful way that 1 country 2 system was going to be maintained. That is not necessarily an argument that 1 country 2 system must be protected for 100 years more and further more. HK has a very long history as part of China dynasty's so it is kind of strange for HK to be a separate system which only left to be that due to left over colony possession. But the mainland's tight government control is something that people not yet harmonized by it tend to want to avoid if at all possible. Quite likely if PRC government control was less then there would be less friction within HK and between HK and the mainland.

Click to expand...

hijiki said:

Well, like any event, there is a timeline and a cause and reaction chain of events within the timeline. It was the fear of the extradition bill being a form of the mainland central government being able to further increase influence in HK politics. Demonstrations about that started in early June. Those demonstrations resulted in Lam only postponing the passing of the bill. That basically means that the bill is to remain and be passed anyway. So the demonstrations increased in size up to 2 million. But purely peaceful. Night demonstrations and face-offs with the HK police started in July as well as protesters blocking off some roads and interfering with some of the train mass transit. In mid August, the PLA Army moved units and parked them in the Shenzhen Bay Sports Center which is right next to HK. And by late August, white shirt Pro-mainland government gang groups were going around and beating the protesters with sticks. By early September, some protesters started getting more violent, doing things like making fire in the middle of the road. But by far and large, the bulk of the demonstrators were still doing mostly what they been doing in June or July. Along with early September was Lam's leaked conversation as well as her decision to withdraw the extradition bill. At this point the protesters maybe should have yield. But they had no trust and they wanted full suffrage. It was this point that more protesters turned violent and destructive. Yet despite the violent and destruction by the protesters not starting until September, Joshua Wong and Agnes Chow were charged and given jail sentences for a protest they organized in June. So there seems plenty of room for lack of trust and they may be why the protesters felt in September that Lam's announcement in September 3rd was not enough and so the protesters just pushed for universal suffrage while steam was built up. But I think some did get careless, thoughtless, and lost the the appropriate means and went too far. They may have been trying to trigger a repeat of tank vs protesters scene perhaps but the central government remained patient this time around.

Click to expand...