Hong-Kong Protests

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
First, Catalonia held an unconstitutional referendum on independence and defied a court order that banned the referendum. The regional government then made a unilateral declaration of independence. In those circumstances it's not surprising that Catalonian autonomy was in part suspended.

Second, Catalonia's autonomy was not revoked. Part of it was suspended. Elections were held again, and there are ongoing negotiations to resolve the situation.

Third, and here's the real kicker, pro-independence parties are still legal in Spain. In fact, they hold a majority in the Catalonian parliament.

You cannot compare that to the events in Hong Kong. There was no declaration of independence by the HK government that necessitated a response from Beijing. Also, the CCP has been banning not just pro-independence parties but also made it illegal for ordinary citizens to even show support for the concept themselves. The national security law in HK is so wide that it could be used to suppress any criticism of the CCP or HK administration. Spain has been far calmer in comparison.

Nice redirection. I wonder what Madrid think of the year long rioting and open call to independence. Plus Beijing only implemented Article 23 as required in the Basic Law, didn't even suspend "part of autonomy"
Catalonia independence movement obviously have been neutered by Madrid. Article 23 will achieve the same thing
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
First, Catalonia held an unconstitutional referendum on independence and defied a court order that banned the referendum. The regional government then made a unilateral declaration of independence. In those circumstances it's not surprising that Catalonian autonomy was in part suspended.

Second, Catalonia's autonomy was not revoked. Part of it was suspended. Elections were held again, and there are ongoing negotiations to resolve the situation.

Third, and here's the real kicker, pro-independence parties are still legal in Spain. In fact, they hold a majority in the Catalonian parliament.

You cannot compare that to the events in Hong Kong. There was no declaration of independence by the HK government that necessitated a response from Beijing. Also, the CCP has been banning not just pro-independence parties but also made it illegal for ordinary citizens to even show support for the concept themselves. The national security law in HK is so wide that it could be used to suppress any criticism of the CCP or HK administration. Spain has been far calmer in comparison.

I wasn't going to reply, because it's going to be ignored anyway. But I can't sit by and watch someone twisted facts to suite it's agenda.

I have mentioned about Catalan over a month ago to our A-Team member, but nothing forthcoming till now. Obviously it has taken him this much time to do his best to manipulate the situation on the ground.

It is amazing to hear him justify the votes in Catalan they was won by pro-independence party null and void because it is unconstitutional and defies the court order that banned the referendum.

Guess who made it law to be unconstitutional and unlawful? Spain! So if Spain can pass laws that made it unconstitutional and unlawful, and the US and EU is ok with that. But not ok with China passing laws to made it unlawful and unconstitutional for Hong Kong under the national security umbrella to do likewise. Isn't this hypocrisy at it's Best?

And as for the Catalonia autonomy not being revoke? Only part of it was suspended! So Hong Kong's autonomy must have been revoke then? Or even suspended part of It? No alas no. Nothing has changed. The various political parties are still able to go about it's business.

And here's the real kicker, the pro-democracy parties are still legal in Hong kong. And indeed still held majority at the council!

Even today, Jimmy Lai and his poison apples daily are able to aired their views in public.

FB_IMG_1593590954112.jpg
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I wonder what Madrid think of the year long rioting and open call to independence.

Madrid had to deal with more than open calls for independence. It had to deal with a referendum in support of independence in breach of a restraining order from the courts and a unilateral declaration of independence from the Catalonian government. If you don't think that's much worse than the situation in Hong Kong, where there was no referendum, no declaration of UDI by the HK government and not even majority support for independence in the HK Opposition, I don't know what to say.

Plus Beijing only implemented Article 23 as required in the Basic Law, didn't even suspend "part of autonomy"

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, only the Hong Kong government could put forward the legislation on national security. The HK government has always been pro-CCP. If it failed to put forward reasonable legislation that's a failing of the CCP's allies in Hong Kong. Madrid has not banned localist or independence parties, let alone made it a crime to call for independence. It has just reserved the right to be the final authority on Catalonia's status.

Whereas the CCP has not just banned independence parties, it has made it a crime for any citizen to support it in public, or do anything the CCP doesn't like for that matter by making it illegal to "incite hatred" against the central Chinese government or the HK government. That's a thinly veiled attempt to silence opposition, which in turn effectively ends autonomy for the city.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
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Idk why people would think of HKers as refugees.

People that got bombed by US are refugees.



Idk why this is so hard to comprehend and accept for some people.

@Gatekeeper welcome back :)

Thank you. You guys are the best. I've been to other forums. Etc. And boy did I catch the "right" time. The Indian forums are scary. The Indians defies logic. And the nationalism is out of this world. They think they kicked butts, but yet still scream revenge as though they have lost the fight. I often asked them which is it? One guy killed 10 Chinese with bare hands and you want revenge?

So in a way, I've learned a lot more by visiting those forums. I think I'm a better educated person for that experiences. But at the end of the day are glad to be back with sane educated people. (Even though I believe I should've been away in the first place).
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Contrary to popular belief, empires and great powers generally fall due to internal malaise and decay rather than from external pressures.

This was true of the Soviet Union, whose elites lost faith in their own ideology following their failure to mould Afghanistan in their image; this was true of Rome, which decayed over the course of centuries (and even Alaric, who sacked Rome in 410AD, had wanted to become a citizen); and it will be true of China as well. Great countries can survive massive external pressures. Short of war, only domestic discontent and self-doubt can cause their collapse. Viewed from this angle (and from a realist-functionalist interpretation), Xi Jinping's actions are completely in line with his self-interest if he believes that the threat to their existence is internal stability. And there is strong evidence that he believes exactly that: one of the first things he did upon taking the office of General Secretary was to make all cadres watch a six-part documentary on the fall of the Soviet Union. Hence nobody should be surprised at his decision to sacrifice China's international standing to shore up domestic stability --- and China has never been more domestically stable in the modern era, cf. a recent decade-long longitudinal survey from Harvard's Ash Center which looked at rising domestic satisfaction levels of local, provincial, and central governments.

This is before mentioning the broader trend of the so-called neo-authoritarian school of thought in Chinese policy circles as exemplified by the promotion of Wang Huning to the Politburo Standing Committee, taking a role equivalent to that of head of ideology; but the complex story of neo-authoritarian thought in China, along with Wang Huning's significance, is far too long to tap out on my phone. Suffice to say, all of Xi Jinping's actions are perfectly consistent with neo-authoritarian policy recommendations and only come across as a surprise to anyone who hasn't read up on it.

I saw this comment over at FT about Xi overplaying his hand.

What you guys think
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I saw this comment over at FT about Xi overplaying his hand.

I assume that this is the main article, although it doesn't load comments.

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Just a snip from the bottom:

Yet, there is a school of thought in Beijing that says China’s drive to shore up control over Hong Kong will create a more stable situation in the longer term. “We just want to put our house in order,” said Wang Huiyao, president of the Center for China and Globalization, a Beijing-based think-tank. “Some countries may not see the benefits of this for the time being but they will see sooner or later a more prosperous Hong Kong and more stable China, which is of benefit to the whole world.”

For now, there is little doubt that China’s reputation in the world is sustaining structural damage. “The China brand is being damaged quickly and extensively,” says Chen Zhiwu, professor of finance at the University of Hong Kong. “I definitely think China has overplayed its hand. The wolf-warrior diplomacy has been counterproductive and hurts China’s own interests. China today is economically stronger and more powerful and hence more confident than 30 or 40 years ago, but it does not mean China should use its power like a wolf warrior would.”


What you guys think

The comment doesn't really say a lot. It's a fancy way of saying that Xi is seeking to promote stability over all else. I think it's perfectly apparent that he wants stability (and control). Who else thinks otherwise?
 

hullopilllw

Junior Member
Registered Member
Madrid had to deal with more than open calls for independence. It had to deal with a referendum in support of independence in breach of a restraining order from the courts and a unilateral declaration of independence from the Catalonian government. If you don't think that's much worse than the situation in Hong Kong, where there was no referendum, no declaration of UDI by the HK government and not even majority support for independence in the HK Opposition, I don't know what to say.



As I pointed out earlier in the thread, only the Hong Kong government could put forward the legislation on national security. The HK government has always been pro-CCP. If it failed to put forward reasonable legislation that's a failing of the CCP's allies in Hong Kong. Madrid has not banned localist or independence parties, let alone made it a crime to call for independence. It has just reserved the right to be the final authority on Catalonia's status.

Whereas the CCP has not just banned independence parties, it has made it a crime for any citizen to support it in public, or do anything the CCP doesn't like for that matter by making it illegal to "incite hatred" against the central Chinese government or the HK government. That's a thinly veiled attempt to silence opposition, which in turn effectively ends autonomy for the city.

In short, autonomy for you means wholely the right to commit treason and secession without consequences. You should check which government in the world allows that and ask yourself why China should be the exception.

Not sure if you are pretending to be naive or simply too oblivious to your own double standard worldview.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
In short, autonomy for you means wholely the right to commit treason and secession without consequences. You should check which government in the world allows that and ask yourself why China should be the exception.

It's not just Spain that allows open talk of regional independence. In the UK its legal for a person to say their city or region should be independent, and there are "localist" or independence seeking political parties (the Scottish Nationalist Party has actually been the Scottish executive for several years). Canada has allowed Quebec two independence referenda, and Quebec is governed by a nationalist (pro-Quebec independence) party. Germany has the Bavaria Party, albeit it has little support. There have been discussions in Texas on secession, albeit without anywhere near majority support in polls, and organistions like the Texas Nationalist Movement. All the above is perfectly legal in those countries.

The concept I think you're having difficulty with is separating the opinions or campaigning of individuals and groups, in contrast to regional governments making unilateral declarations of independence that they're not entitled to. The former is little threat to the territorial integrity of a country because it still allows the national government to decide what steps, if any, to take next. Whereas the latter is an immediate threat because if action is not taken by the central government, that territory may become de-facto independent.

No one is suggesting that if the Chief Executive in HK made a UDI, the CCP could not take action. But that isn't what's happened in HK - not even close.
 
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