Hong-Kong Protests

Nutrient said:

You are fighting an argument that I have not been making. I believe that your device is called "the strawman debating trick", and it is not considered quite honest. Shame on you.

I have not been saying that Hong Kong would have no water, only that the island would have enought to live on, but not to shower with.

So the choice facing a typical sensible Hong Konger would be: (1) Throw away his very expensive home to move somewhere else, absorbing an enormous loss. Or (2) stay in Hong Kong, swallow some pride, and ask for help from the mainland. In the second case, the Hong Konger gets to keep his home.

Which choice would the sensible majority make? I think (2) -- overwhelmingly.

As the rest of your argument depends on your strawman, I will ignore it.

Click to expand...

No, the entire time, I understand what you mean. No shower water = stinky. Right? That's the full extent. I understand, ok? Read everything from that context. No strawman, I'm not accusing you of wanting to kill people from water deprivation. From now on, read "water deprivation," or "no water" as "no shower water = stinky" LOL If I write it any other way, treat it as an abbreviation. No strawman here for sure.

Are you familiar with the concept of white flight? In economics, it is a social phenomenon that occurs whenever people of color or lower economic status start to move in to a formerly white upper class neighborhood and the result is that the property prices drop and all the white/upper class people move out and abandon their homes even for low prices. That's traditionally what happens when the neighborhood you live in goes to shit. You don't start begging people to make it better; you move.

SinoSoldier said:

HK is still more or less a gateway to Chinese markets, albeit not as major as before, due to its special trading status. Much of FDI being poured into mainland China is through HK and much of Chinese companies' stocks are traded through the SEHK. It's no surprise that much of China's economic and tech hubs (Shenzhen, anyone?) are in close proximity to HK.

To bear a dismissive attitude towards HK politics, or fail to tread lightly in its politically-active youth, does directly threaten the economy of China. Ask yourself, if HK were as irrelevant as you make it out to be, why is Beijing so eager to let the protests end on a good note?

Click to expand...

much of the financial functions of HK can be replaced by Singapore and other tax havens. For example, London is number one in offshore RMB transactions.

SinoSoldier said:

If being anti-establishment begets rot, then HK would've rotted from the inside out decades ago.
Nah, it's just reaffirmation that HK is steadfastly anti-Beijing, has been for some time, and will probably be so in the foreseeable future.

I also bet that a big proportion of those who voted pro-democrat are not necessarily in agreement with the riots themselves and the destruction of property.

Click to expand...

Oh please, Hong Kong doesn't even have legislative elections til 80s. Many anti-establishment associates which were leftists back then were either in jail or put on a boat to be shipped to China.

The anti-establishment parties have declared that they support the rioters and would never cut ties with them. So whoever voted for the anti-establishment parties would be voting for the riots. Whoever argue otherwise is just pitiful that includes the pro-Beijing media. HK has spoken and 60% of the HK voters have declared they support the rioters and the riots.

vincent said:

much of the financial functions of HK can be replaced by Singapore and other tax havens. For example, London is number one in offshore RMB transactions.

Click to expand...

Singapore can deny access to its stock exchanges, couldn't it? Any why rely on foreign stock exchanges (Singapore isn't exactly a Beijing-friendly country either) when you can list on your own?

SinoSoldier said:

HK is still more or less a gateway to Chinese markets, albeit not as major as before, due to its special trading status. Much of FDI being poured into mainland China is through HK and much of Chinese companies' stocks are traded through the SEHK. It's no surprise that much of China's economic and tech hubs (Shenzhen, anyone?) are in close proximity to HK.

To bear a dismissive attitude towards HK politics, or fail to tread lightly in its politically-active youth, does directly threaten the economy of China.

Click to expand...

When people want to do business with China, they will climb mountains of trouble to do it. Without Hong Kong, it all easily flows through Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc... The way it is currently set up is because Beijing has not yet moved to choke off Hong Kong. If it does, very few companies will say, "We either do business through Hong Kong or not at all." Especially because Hong Kong has already become a terrible place for business.

SinoSoldier said:

Ask yourself, if HK were as irrelevant as you make it out to be, why is Beijing so eager to let the protests end on a good note?

Click to expand...

Because Beijing wants to win hearts and minds; it's trying to take a finesse approach and it wants to show the world its capabilities and improvements. It also doesn't want to give the US an excuse to make a case at the UN for any sanctions on it, which we are already past that point seeing all the things that the terrorists have done. Unfortunately, a wealthy country has much to consider; in 1989, China was not wealthy and things were much less complicated. Beijing wanted to show its people what democracy in China looked like and to garner hatred in the mainland for any such idea of it. It certainly worked there, and increased nationalism in the mainland, but it seems that the people in Hong Kong don't think so well.

MrCrazyBoyRavi said:

Yup . Recent IPO of Alibaba is the proof of this face. They tried to do it in NY but were blocked . They could have done it in shanghai but they choose HK despite the political turmoil of HK. It proves how vital HK is for Chinese economy.

Click to expand...

You talked about nonsense. Alibaba wanted to list in HK 5 years ago but HK exchange declined to allow dual stocks lising so Alibaba has listed in the US 5 years ago. The only reason why Alibaba is trying to list in HK now is due to the fact that the central government asked Alibaba to list more closer to home and the Hong Kong exchange changed its rule to allow duel stock listing.

vincent said:

There were people who got hanged from trees, little chambers of horrors where the “counter-revolutionaries” (all it takes is to have someone accuse you of being one) and rival factions being tortured to death. Kids and university students are out of school learning nothing and many join gangs (what the Red Guards truly were) and killed each other

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know! Nothing there worse than what I see in Hong Kong. These terrorists deserve this and much more.

MrCrazyBoyRavi said:

china should had relaxed travel restriction between HK and mainland to dilute HK population and its democracy leaning attitude. Seems like CCP was more scared that democratic idea will be diffused in China than Nationalistic idea to bolster in HK. China deliberately isolated HK and at the end of the day, It had no say on future of HK than western Nations. Despite the fact that HK was part of China. Such an Irony.

Click to expand...

It is Hong Kong people who don't want that many mainlanders to visit HK. So please get your facts straight. You keep talking things you have no knowledge of.

SinoSoldier said:

HK is still more or less a gateway to Chinese markets, albeit not as major as before, due to its special trading status. Much of FDI being poured into mainland China is through HK and much of Chinese companies' stocks are traded through the SEHK. It's no surprise that much of China's economic and tech hubs (Shenzhen, anyone?) are in close proximity to HK.

Click to expand...

Shanghai is over 1000 km from Hong Kong. Shanghai's stock market is already larger than Hong Kong's ( in market cap versus $3.8 trillion USD).

To bear a dismissive attitude towards HK politics, or fail to tread lightly in its politically-active youth, does directly threaten the economy of China.

Click to expand...

Hong Kong is not quite irrelevant but it is rapidly growing more and more so.

Ask yourself, if HK were as irrelevant as you make it out to be, why is Beijing so eager to let the protests end on a good note?

Click to expand...

For the same reason that everyone wants a fight in their family to end well.

manqiangrexue said:

When people want to do business with China, they will climb mountains of trouble to do it. Without Hong Kong, it all easily flows through Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, etc... The way it is currently set up is because Beijing has not yet moved to choke off Hong Kong. If it does, very few companies will say, "We either do business through Hong Kong or not at all." Especially because Hong Kong has already become a terrible place for business.

Click to expand...

Not exactly "easily" through Shanghai/Beijing/Shenzhen with the trade war going on, is it? HK is an attractive place for FDI (at least prior to the protests) because it is relatively immune to tariffs, US-China trade tensions, and general volatility within China's markets, due to the HKD being pegged to the USD.

manqiangrexue said:

Because Beijing wants to win hearts and minds; it's trying to take a finesse approach and it wants to show the world its capabilities and improvements. Unfortunately, a wealthy country has much to consider; in 1989, China was not wealthy and things were much less complicated.

Click to expand...

Oh please; Beijing knows fully well that winning the hearts & minds of HKers, especially of the younger generation, isn't realistic. Its paramount goal when it comes to HK politics is to ensure a balance between control and autonomy that allows the city to remain firmly under its auspices whilst simultaneously enjoying its free-trade status granted by Western democracies.

Frankly, that balancing act has been thrown off-kilter by the recent protests and the vote.