Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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xiabonan

Junior Member
To be fair, if enough safeguards can be put in place to assure China that a fully democratic HK government and CE won't even think about independence, that may be a way to entice Taiwan to eventually return to the fold.

There are definitely some voices out there who would love to see another TAM, but the small difference here is that... well, riot police exist in China now ._.

In mainland there are thousands of "mass incidents" every year. If the so-called "TAM" is to happen again, it would already have happened.

I'm really disgusted by some of the news reports from media such as CNN. It's almost as if they WANT "TAM" to happen again in HK so that they can bash the CCP again. They don't care what the HK people are protesting for, all they care is if there's something "big" to write about that can attract eyeballs. Disgusting.
 
It won't stay grassroot and leaderless forever, eventually some new form of leadership will emerge, as nature and human instincts would have it.

Also, it won't remain peaceful for that long I assure you - the problems is beyond SAR's capacity, and beyond CY Leung's paygrade. Sure, he can resign or sacked or whatever, but who's going to take his place? Or dare to take his place? CE ain't a seat, it's a bloody bullseye in a firing range! I can bet you for USD100 that Henry Tang (the runner-up in the last CE election) is more than happy that he's not the one on that firing line! And that sentiment is shared by everyone.

And things will get worse when those fascists a-la "pan-democrats" took power - what manner of weed you're smoking that you'd have faith with them bunch of "little Adolf/Himmler/Goering/Goebbels"?

So, you can safely bet that on Oct 1st the insurgents will organize some massive rallies to jeer at PRC for all the world to see, venting their panted-up anti-China/CCP sentiment, and somehow Mainland authorities would "leaked" such stuff for the Mainlanders to see, fire up nationalistic rage that demand HK be "punished"; then on Oct 6th, the first working day after the Golden Week Holiday, them big wigs in Beijing step up on the rhetoric...

For all honesty, it's unimaginable that Beijing would give-in to the insurgents' demands without some solid, major concessions from the insurgents that Beijing can show to the Mainlanders this is indeed "win-win". By China's standards that mean a few prominent heads need to roll, and I do literally mean "heads" here.

It won't stay grassroot and leaderless forever, eventually some new form of leadership will emerge, as nature and human instincts would have it.

Also, it won't remain peaceful for that long I assure you - the problems is beyond SAR's capacity, and beyond CY Leung's paygrade. Sure, he can resign or sacked or whatever, but who's going to take his place? Or dare to take his place? CE ain't a seat, it's a bloody bullseye in a firing range! I can bet you for USD100 that Henry Tang (the runner-up in the last CE election) is more than happy that he's not the one on that firing line! And that sentiment is shared by everyone.
I totally agree with you. But you do know that it's unfortunate that CY is like, freakin' 10x worse than what a normal CE at this position at this time should be. He doesn't attend to the public you know that. And I'd put another $100 on top of your stash that I agree with you too. Henry must be enjoying CY being burned on the stake right now, although he deserves it.


And things will get worse when those fascists a-la "pan-democrats" took power - what manner of weed you're smoking that you'd have faith with them bunch of "little Adolf/Himmler/Goering/Goebbels"?
Ok and I'm not really a pan-democrat supporter. I only align by certain of their views, but I ain't their supporter. If I are to really think what am I, I'd an independent moderate or sth, where I'll attempt to address the craziness in HK right now but literally really try to fix things. The current gov't doesn't care anymore and you know that.

So, you can safely bet that on Oct 1st the insurgents will organize some massive rallies to jeer at PRC for all the world to see, venting their panted-up anti-China/CCP sentiment, and somehow Mainland authorities would "leaked" such stuff for the Mainlanders to see, fire up nationalistic rage that demand HK be "punished"; then on Oct 6th, the first working day after the Golden Week Holiday, them big wigs in Beijing step up on the rhetoric...
I doubt it. Maybe some voices about China on October 1st I won't be surprised, but if all this suddenly erupts into super angry flame, that's something I really doubt or believe. And you do know that right now the focus is still "f CY", "direct election", etc.

For all honesty, it's unimaginable that Beijing would give-in to the insurgents' demands without some solid, major concessions from the insurgents that Beijing can show to the Mainlanders this is indeed "win-win". By China's standards that mean a few prominent heads need to roll, and I do literally mean "heads" here.

You're a HKer, so let's wish for the best shall we? I really wish things work out too. Everyday is technically a lose-lose. I really hope something can work out for both sides, and honestly I hope and believe CY is the one whose head will roll. My dad is so against what's happening right now, but even he thinks CY will have to step down("a matter of time" said by him), and I honestly think this assbag is going to be a scapegoat by CCP for sure. His disappearance is a very important part to the solution in terms of being symbolic.
 
You might want to double check your history, there were protests and quite some chaos in HK in the '60s at the height of the Cold War and the Cultural Revolution in China. And there was some sporadic looting in HK during a short period around the 1989 crackdown in Beijing.

Yea I made a mistake right there. I was thinking "30 years ago"(although technically around 40 years ago) when I was attempting to type " '60s", but the priming affected me and I typed 30. A cognitive error I'd say.
 

Brumby

Major
The first step is the ability for the protesters to be more moderate, but right now we lack even that.

Details can be sorted once an ability to negotiate is there. But the protests have no leaders, or are arrested (I suspect they are in some type of talks right now), but even if the leaders were still out here, do we think they would have the foresight to be moderate in their demands? What even are their demands apart from "democracy now, now, now, now"

Basically the problem is right now, it is HK vs China. It needs to be HK demonstrating it is a part of China, willing to work with the central government to work out a compromise, now that they've made enough noise to get their attention.
The ball is occupying Occupy's court (hohoho, punny)

The negotiations had taken place and broken down. It boils down to one single issue. The OC wants universal suffrage by 2017 unfiltered vs. Beijing's position of filtered candidates. So there is universal agreement on the principle is just how you get there has broken down. The Sino British agreement established the principle of universal suffrage which to Beijing's credit is honouring it except that it comes with Chinese characteristics. It is also enshrined within the Basic Law that it is the goal of having universal suffrage except the terms and timeline in which it will happen is within the jurisdiction of Beijing. Since a definite date is not cast in stone it has become open ended and subject to dispute on timing. So why 2017? There is a long story that I read which I have forgotten the details, but essentially somehow in the negotiation process a 2017 date expectation was set which itself is disputed whether it was a goal or an agreement. Is there room for compromise? Definitely because the Basic law also states that universal suffrage is essentially a live working model that can change over time as conditions allow.

This is how I would propose to de-escalate.
1)Withdraw the riot police. Their presence is just raising tensions. Fortunately that has happened
2)Let the students sit and burn out their passion. Let the emotions ease out of their system
3)Start back door negotiations with the goal of establishing a committee from the parties towards a nomination process for a CE in 2022 that will be acceptable to both side. As long as both side continues to work on things there is always a chance for success. The current problem is because the OC movement do not see a path forward other than protesting.
4)Dismiss C.Y. Unfortunately he is the lightning rod and has to go and plus his departure will go with him a lot of the misdirected grievances. Install an interim CEO from a pool of respected retired civil servant who has demonstrated capable administration skills.
 

xiabonan

Junior Member
Again I've got to say that although the people of HK are certainly courageous and full of enthusiasm, or at least those participating in OCLP, they need some political wisdom to push forward their agenda.

Back in the early days of CCP's rise, when they're weak and small all they advocated for is "cooperation between CCP and KMT to fight foreign invaders", and then later it became "to bring multi-party democratic system to China and have our presence in the congress".

It was not until the forces are largely even and the PLA started to win at major battlefields, the slogan became "cross the Yangtze river and liberate the whole of China".

You need to win over as many neutral parties as possible, to sound as realistic and reasonable as possible, to tailor your message to your potential audience as much as possible, in order to push forward your goals.

In this case, the protesters could have explicitly said that they "oppose the HKSAR government and CY Leung" but "have full faith in the Central Government that the voices of the people of HK will be heard and considered".

They could have said that "all they fight for is a better and more prosperous HK, for its people and for the greater good of Motherland", and "strongly oppose any foreign intervention and ideas of separatism".

They could have gathered support from the mainlanders by saying "we want to eliminate the income gap, we want to afford our own houses, we're no different from you so let's work together!".

They could have proposed a series of changes and reforms, both political and non-political, and initiate a direct dialogue with Beijing by sending a representative, and hide the "democracy" part somewhere in the text.

They could have proposed that instead of "HK people nominate as they wish", that a committee can be setup, where members are elected by people of HK, and this committee will represent the HK people to nominate a candidate, whereas Beijing will nominate one or two as well, and the CE can be elected from this group. Isn't this a middle ground?

I think it's important that the HK people realise that the kind of democracy they're pushing for is non-existent in many oldest and largest and most advanced and developed democracies in the world.

Democracy can take many forms, and it's not just one form that will work. If you're not happy with Beijing's arrangements, it's probably more realistic to push for change by first suggesting a middle ground, and slowly work up from there.

After all, the essence of democracy is about "compromise".
 
That has a lot to do with how the media feeding the masses, "simplifying" the problem.

Blame the rich, blame those Mainlander horde...sure it's easier for the general public to consume, but all the efforts are diverted away from more practical solutions, those that'd challenge the vested interests.

And not to mention the operation of Colored Revolution driven in the shadows by the Western powers.

I think the only over-simplification, along with conspiracy theories, are coming from you right now.
 
If HKers are enlightened then their first reaction would be to educate rather than make fun of or heap disdain upon the MLers who may be behaving this way out of ignorance or habit but not out of malice. Only in cases where these behaviors are out of malice, which I believe are few and far in between, should HKers direct appropriate contempt and punishment upon the particular offender.

Do you know that when some are told what they're doing is wrong, they either ignored the advice, or yelled back at people?

There are so many cases, I just don't bother mentioning anymore.

If you think it's once a while, you're wrong. These stories happened weekly, literally. There are so many already on youtube and on the internet.
If I honestly start a thread that uploads stories of these behaviors, I can get pages and pages on this thread, but I figured I won't because I don't want to be doing such an a-hole thing, and this community is pro-China and you guys will just hate me for it. That thread will probably get closed down as well.
 
In a perfect world, everyone would consider this while observing distasteful behaviour from an outgroup.

Most people only have a limited quantity of patience.
And we ain't talking about far between cases too. It's happened so many times, it's insane. And I mean, if you consider that Singapore recently put in place a law that says whoever defecate in public space, they'll be caned and forced to wash public toilets for a week. While this is Singapore, you can see that it's definitely not far between case otherwise you won't have a strange law like that that popped out. And in HK, people's reaction are praising the Singaporean authorities and condemning HKSAR for failing to act. Some pro-China representatives even came out to say that HKers should "tolerate". How do you tolerate public defecation? This is one of the angers we had towards HKSAR gov't.
 
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