Growing Asymmetries in the China-Japan Naval Balance

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
Soviet Union is famous for its metallurgy. A lot of people would even argue that it is even more advanced than the Americans to some extent (of course, only during its peak is the early and mid 80s, not anymore).

Actually majority of China's weapons are made domestically, only a few extremely high tech parts come from overseas, like ship&jet engines and satellite. Due to arms embargo and Russian incompetence over last decade, China barely import anything anymore. It now produce almost everything by itself.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Pugachev, just a small correction. China doesn't import Jet Engine, but Turbo Fan

China also doesn't import satellite, all Chinese satellites are made in China, including Beidou navigation satellites
 

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
Pugachev, just a small correction. China doesn't import Jet Engine, but Turbo Fan

China also doesn't import satellite, all Chinese satellites are made in China, including Beidou navigation satellites

I meant some parts of the satellite. I do know as a matter of fact that many satellites have to use imported parts, especially those data transfer satellites used for civil communication. This is the same as a lot of other things in China, which they can make almost everything in a system, except for a few crucial parts. Or that they can make it, it's just that they don't meet the standard.

Turbo fan still falls under the category of jet engines, so do most other modern aviation engines.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Read it here. I don't understand why you always get paranoid when I say things about China that is lesser than your level of praise. You always seem to think that I'm making false claims as soon as I say something that doesn't meet your liking.

We should be objective about the things that China can do and cannot do, instead of always praising, or like some Westerners, always condemning.

Believe it or not, I actually study in this field. Ballistic steel are very different from steel used in carrier decks. Although a lot of these steel look similar on paper, they very greatly in extreme situations. Ballistic steels don't have to stand extreme heat, at least not for long. Usually they just endure fraction of a second of strong blast and it ends there. Whereas carrier deck steels are constantly heated from the excess heat generated by the boilers (this is not much for this grade of steel, but it will do damage after decades of wear and tear) and especially the few thousand degrees of torture from the jet engines. Fighter jets have to turn on their afterburner when launching from a carrier, which will torch the deck after many seconds of exposure. Then the relatively cold steam and moisture from the sea could weaken the steel. It might not be visible at first, but definitely will after many years. (Personal thoughts, if the Indians make it, it probably crack after few months, just like the stadium built for the Commonwealth Games) It also has to resist corrosion of sea salt, along with possible attacks from anti ship missiles. This is the same as jet engines used in commercial jets and fighter jets. They have to be used over and over again, which stress is the main factor. This is why Chinese missile engines can match the level of reliability to those Western counterparts, but jet engines cannot.

There are so many factors in treating a steel to meet different demands. It is a lot harder than most people think it is. There can be more than 20-30 stages in treating just a single slab of steel. Variations in each step will produce very different steels. Some steels may share 29 common steps, except that one last step, makes all the difference in its performance.

Please do your research and know the right facts, instead of finding random sources to support your argument.

You study this field. I actually work in this field for many years What nonsense are you talking about. The steel deck is not exposed to boiler heat The boiler heat is contained within the water wall of the boiler that is how they generate steam they don't use ballistic grade steel for this

You say ballistic missile doesn't need to be heat resistance. Which planet are you living?.Do you know how HEAT munition works? It works by using principle of shaped charge. A copper cone surrounded by explosive that will produce the hot plasma jet to punctured the ballistic steel. Check how hot is plasma jet. Jet engine exhaust is 800 deg F max Plama jet is 2000 deg F at least
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The plane land parallel to the deck and change their angle after leaving the deck . They have blast deflector at the air craft carriere So unless they do vertical lift off and land they ar not going to exposed the deck to the heat. Corrosion resistant I can understand. But corrosion resistant is merely adding Chromium to the steel composition

Many of your post just reflect your own prejudice and sometime your ignorant I would say.
Like you say China import 8 billion CNC machinery from Germany I check the figure. It turn out the total German CNC production/year is only 5 Billion dollar China only import 10% of the total CNC need The rest are domestically produced

I don't have nothing personal against you but your BS will be openly challenge. I am not the only one HKSDU also challenge your contention that the cannard on J-15 is fixed'

Everytime Martian post article about progress in Chinese technology you always question if the part is made in China without even checking the fact first. Turn out the atomic clock in Chinese satellite is domestically made
 
Last edited:

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Not anymore Read Tphuang blog He study aeroengine for a long time At least there are now 90 J11 which mean 180 WS 10A Engine . Sofar I haven't seen any report of accident
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Read it here. I don't understand why you always get paranoid when I say things about China that is lesser than your level of praise. You always seem to think that I'm making false claims as soon as I say something that doesn't meet your liking.

We should be objective about the things that China can do and cannot do, instead of always praising, or like some Westerners, always condemning.

Believe it or not, I actually study in this field. Ballistic steel are very different from steel used in carrier decks. Although a lot of these steel look similar on paper, they very greatly in extreme situations. Ballistic steels don't have to stand extreme heat, at least not for long. Usually they just endure fraction of a second of strong blast and it ends there. Whereas carrier deck steels are constantly heated from the excess heat generated by the boilers (this is not much for this grade of steel, but it will do damage after decades of wear and tear) and especially the few thousand degrees of torture from the jet engines. Fighter jets have to turn on their afterburner when launching from a carrier, which will torch the deck after many seconds of exposure. Then the relatively cold steam and moisture from the sea could weaken the steel. It might not be visible at first, but definitely will after many years. (Personal thoughts, if the Indians make it, it probably crack after few months, just like the stadium built for the Commonwealth Games) It also has to resist corrosion of sea salt, along with possible attacks from anti ship missiles. This is the same as jet engines used in commercial jets and fighter jets. They have to be used over and over again, which stress is the main factor. This is why Chinese missile engines can match the level of reliability to those Western counterparts, but jet engines cannot.

There are so many factors in treating a steel to meet different demands. It is a lot harder than most people think it is. There can be more than 20-30 stages in treating just a single slab of steel. Variations in each step will produce very different steels. Some steels may share 29 common steps, except that one last step, makes all the difference in its performance.

Please do your research and know the right facts, instead of finding random sources to support your argument.

I agree with Pugachev. Some people tend to overinflate China's military capabilities either through sheer ignorance OR worst yet by purposely making some strawman argument to create unnecessary fear or justify their own paranoia or agenda.
It's one thing to have the ability to build ships/planes etc even many of them BUT to make one with extremely good tolerances, exotic materials and with world class subsystems and is an entirely separate endevor.
Not saying they won;t eventually catch up because China probably will BUT not at the present moment.
 

pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
Not anymore Read Tphuang blog He study aeroengine for a long time At least there are now 90 J11 which 200 WS 10A Engine . Sofar I haven't seen any report of accident
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please do not falsely accuse me of things that I did not say. I said imported 6 billion worth of CNC machines, not 8 billion only from Germany. There are many countries out there that have better CNC machines than the Chinese made ones. Just because the German made ones might be the best in the world, doesn't mean that the Chinese can only import from them. Japan is probably the biggest provider of CNC machines for China, if not, France and Italy also provide a lot of these machines. The US also provide a lot of them, but due to political sensitivity, many extreme high end machines are not for sale to the Chinese.

I also did not say that ballistic steel doesn't have to stand the heat. I meant it doesn't stand the heat for long. I repeated this multiple times already, if it's a material that only stands extreme heat and stress only for a short amount of time, it won't require that much experience to master. These things could usually be mastered within a short amount of time. These are dispensable materials, which are totally different from materials that have to stand stress for up to a decade or two. A lot of these long lasting materials are bottlenecks of Chinese industrial advancement. China make some of the best high tech parts in the world, but majority of them are disposable parts. If it is one of those long last parts instead, a lot would have to be imported. Like I repeated so many times, that's why ship engines and aviation engines have to be imported. Even after WS-10 entered service for quite a while, they just bought another 100+ batch of those Saturn AL-31 engines.

And as for those turbofans, lower performance and standards doesn't mean it's going to cause a plane crash. It is common sense that Russian engines are inferior to those American and British counterparts. But that doesn't mean Russian planes drop to the ground everyday. It simply means they have much shorter life span. In fact, the thrust vectored engines used on exported Indian Sukhois can only last as long as 30 work hours. The Chinese expertise is also a bit behind the Russians. For example, if the a normal Russian engine last 200 hours, the Chinese counterpart would probably be expected to last 150 hours.

If you really think that China already can produce carrier deck steels, please provide me with a link. At least so far, I have not seen any evidence of such accomplishment, but rather countless news reports saying that they are starting to tackle this problem. Also don't forget that as much as India suck in getting their job done, they are actually a relative key player in special grade steel production. They still imported few thousand tons of special grade steel in building their own aircraft carrier.

Don't forget, the carrier deck steels have to stand a cocktail of punishments, not just one or two. When these factors combine, the rules will change drastically. It is just like tank armour vs. agility. The addition of agility will compromise protection and more armour means lower agility. Carrier deck steels have to face even more factors. There are the heat from full afterburners, constant cooling from leaked steam and sea moisture, immense weight of fully loaded jets, the corrosion from sea salt, and on top of all these, the wear and tear from constant usage.

To be honest, even the Japanese, whom are considered to be experts in metallurgy and ship building, even they don't have the ability to make carrier deck grade steel. Even though they are trying very hard to breach the leash from Uncle Sam to have carriers, they still can't fly F35 from those "destroyers" even if they successfully bought them. The decks will simply not be able to support the weight of those jets. Dents will probably show after just a few months of usage.

PS: No offence, but please double check your grammar before posting, it is kind of mind boggling to read sometimes.
 
Last edited:

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Please do not falsely accuse me of things that I did not say. I said imported 6 billion worth of CNC machines, not 8 billion only from Germany. There are many countries out there that have better CNC machines than the Chinese made ones. Just because the German made ones might be the best in the world, doesn't mean that the Chinese can only import from them. Japan is probably the biggest provider of CNC machines for China, if not, France and Italy also provide a lot of these machines. The US also provide a lot of them, but due to political sensitivity, many extreme high end machines are not for sale to the Chinese.

I also did not say that ballistic steel doesn't have to stand the heat. I meant it doesn't stand the heat for long. I repeated this multiple times already, if it's a material that only stands extreme heat and stress only for a short amount of time, it won't require that much experience to master. These things could usually be mastered within a short amount of time. These are dispensable materials, which are totally different from materials that have to stand stress for up to a decade or two. A lot of these long lasting materials are bottlenecks of Chinese industrial advancement. China make some of the best high tech parts in the world, but majority of them are disposable parts. If it is one of those long last parts instead, a lot would have to be imported. Like I repeated so many times, that's why ship engines and aviation engines have to be imported. Even after WS-10 entered service for quite a while, they just bought another 100+ batch of those Saturn AL-31 engines.

And as for those turbofans, lower performance and standards doesn't mean it's going to cause a plane crash. It is common sense that Russian engines are inferior to those American and British counterparts. But that doesn't mean Russian planes drop to the ground everyday. It simply means they have much shorter life span. In fact, the thrust vectored engines used on exported Indian Sukhois can only last as long as 30 work hours. The Chinese expertise is also a bit behind the Russians. For example, if the a normal Russian engine last 200 hours, the Chinese counterpart would probably be expected to last 150 hours.

If you really think that China already can produce carrier deck steels, please provide me with a link. At least so far, I have not seen any evidence of such accomplishment, but rather countless news reports saying that they are starting to tackle this problem. Also don't forget that as much as India suck in getting their job done, they are actually a relative key player in special grade steel production. They still imported few thousand tons of special grade steel in building their own aircraft carrier.

Don't forget, the carrier deck steels have to stand a cocktail of punishments, not just one or two. When these factors combine, the rules will change drastically. It is just like tank armour vs. agility. The addition of agility will compromise protection and more armour means lower agility. Carrier deck steels have to face even more factors. There are the heat from full afterburners, constant cooling from leaked steam and sea moisture, immense weight of fully loaded jets, the corrosion from sea salt, and on top of all these, the wear and tear from constant usage.

To be honest, even the Japanese, whom are considered to be experts in metallurgy and ship building, even they don't have the ability to make carrier deck grade steel. Even though they are trying very hard to breach the leash from Uncle Sam to have carriers, they still can't fly F35 from those "destroyers" even if they successfully bought them. The decks will simply not be able to support the weight of those jets. Dents will probably show after just a few months of usage.

PS: No offence, but please double check your grammar before posting, it is kind of mind boggling to read sometimes.

Ok I apologize you did say China total import of CNC is 6 million Yes I didn't double check my post . My keyboard keep jumping around too. Stil the thrust of my post is right . You are entitled to your bias but please don't use everytime to question other people post before you check the fact.

People got the wrong impression that everything come from China is crap because they have personal experience from buying stuff in Walmart. That is because Walmart demand the cheapest price they can get. You get what you pay for. In no way it reflect China's industrial capability.

Now you talk about Russian Engine is better than Chinese Engine, which is again not true . About couple months ago. There is public commendation for a PLA general who is the director of maintenance depot in Sichuan . Turn out his depot manage to extend the life of AL 31 Engine from 1500 hr to 2000 hr I find the article if I have time

The Japanese and no one else can use the VTOL version of F35 because the downward exhaust jet is too hot . A design defect that they they are trying to remedy now. Not because of steel deck material!

Here is your statement

Whereas carrier deck steels are constantly heated from the excess heat generated by the boilers (this is not much for this grade of steel, but it will do damage after decades of wear and tear) and especially the few thousand degrees of torture from the jet engines. Fighter jets have to turn on their afterburner when launching from a carrier,
 
Last edited:

supercat

Major
Due to arms embargo, I doubt European countries, Japan, or U.S. will sell cutting edge CNC or other high tech stuff to China. If China needs something top-notch, she has to manufacture herself, such as supercomputers, navigational satellites etc.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Exactly
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Wassenaar treaty
The Participating States of the Wassenaar Arrangement are:
Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom and United States.

The Wassenaar Arrangement has been established in order to contribute to regional and international security and stability, by promoting transparency and greater responsibility in transfers of conventional arms and dual-use goods and technologies, thus preventing destabilising accumulations. Participating States seek, through their national policies, to ensure that transfers of these items do not contribute to the development or enhancement of military capabilities which undermine these goals, and are not diverted to support such capabilities.

The decision to transfer or deny transfer of any item is the sole responsibility of each Participating State. All measures with respect to the Arrangement are taken in accordance with national legislation and policies and are implemented on the basis of national discretion. Therefore, for specifics on Export Controls in Participating States contact the National Authorities in that country.
 
Last edited:
Top