antiterror13
Brigadier
Just wonder whether Japan has ever built a luxurious Cruse Liner ?
Growing Asymmetries in the China-Japan Naval Balance
- Thread starter crazyinsane105
- Start date
pugachev_diver
Banned Idiot
Highest total tonnage doesn't mean anything, quality is more important. In fact China produces the most car in the world, but all the equipment used to make the cars come from overseas and all the most advanced technologies are still in the hands of those foreign companies. Samsung and LG together are the biggest IT producers in the world, but all their equipment come from overseas, either Japan or the US.
Ships themselves are just an empty shell, it's not that hard to build as soon as you have some decent industrial foundations. It is the subsystems that are extremely hard to build. China holds a lot of world's number records in the industrial sector, but a lot of these are just result of Western companies' outsourcing.
It is still not proven that China has tackled and solved the problems in making special grade steels used in
various key parts of an aircraft carrier.
China is indeed growing and catching fast, but we still have to be conscious and cool about its actual stage of development.
Ships themselves are just an empty shell, it's not that hard to build as soon as you have some decent industrial foundations. It is the subsystems that are extremely hard to build. China holds a lot of world's number records in the industrial sector, but a lot of these are just result of Western companies' outsourcing.
It is still not proven that China has tackled and solved the problems in making special grade steels used in
various key parts of an aircraft carrier.
China is indeed growing and catching fast, but we still have to be conscious and cool about its actual stage of development.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
I am not so sure that is the case anymore In term of CNC machinery China and Taiwan own 50% of the wold market. There is only 2 or 3 CNC manufacturer left in US .If you mean forming bending and welding the Chasis. I am sure China can built their own. If you mean robotic welding machine. Certainly they can built their own. Other than that conveyor belt etc they are low tech Anybody can do it
No ship is not empty hull You got thousand meter of piping and control system to move the oil and so on Plus you got heavy diesel engine to run the ship . Control system etc NO SHIP IS NOT EMPTY!
The western shipyard go bankrupt because they beome uncompetitive. Labor is the single largest component of Shipbuilding At $60/hr and 1 month vacation in French and Germany They just out price themselves!
Certainly they can. If they can produce Ballistic grade steel for their Tank and APC they should be able to produce Aircraft carrier steel plate. There is nothing harder than ballistic grade steel. Just imagine the impact of Sabot hitting with velocity of 3200 ft/sec
The 'Fin' round travels at around 975 m/s (3200 ft/s), resulting in the generation of a force of 34,000N when it comes in contact with a weighted and/or fixed object. Speed, and therefore energy, inevitably decreases during flight; however, it is still effective at ranges up to six kilometres.
LNG carrier is high tech job Only handful of shipyard can built LNG Carriere. Because standard Steel at -162 C will shatter like a glass. You need hih halloy metal to withstand such a low temperature. NIckel and monel based. the problem is welding such high alloy is difficult and demanding task Normal welding procedure won't do it . Any leak cannot be tolerated because they can ignite So zero error tolerance!. then you problem with insulation etc . China now win contact after contract in this class of Ship.
Last edited:
pugachev_diver
Banned Idiot
China imported six billion USD worth of CNC machines in 2009. CNC machines are just like cars, there are those toy grade cars from India (Tata) and there are those extremely well made German Mercedes. China can definitely produce those relatively lower end ones. But as for those extremely high end machines with precision that go into nanometer level, a lot of them still have to be imported. Although a lot of domestic companies have already reached into this level of precision, they still lack reliability when compared to imported machines, especially those made in Germany. I have a friend who used to work in a company that uses these kinds of machines. He told me if you want to buy 华中数控 (the leading CNC company in China) machines, you would have to buy two, one for work and another as back up, since those machines break down so easily. Even if China can make those machines, there is still only one company in China that could make the core units, including software and motor system. Even so, the precision still cannot match those made by Siemens and SoftServo.
Those ships are still really just empty shells, since wiring and pipes are not that difficult. All you have to do is map them out in the computers and follow the blueprint. The subsystems are the most important. By subsystems I mean high grade steel, and no, ballistic steels are completely different from special grade steels used in aircraft carriers. You have to compare apples to apples instead of comparing it to oranges. A lot of things are easy to develop because they are used once, like missile motors and ballistic steel, which the Chinese can make very well. On the contrary, there are jet engines and ship engines, and especially steel used to make decks on aircraft carriers. Those things have to be used over and over again, this makes the whole thing a million times more complex.
Since you said ship engines, actually those ship engines are mostly either Ukrainian or German MTUs.
Like you said, these techniques are indeed very sophisticated and is worth to be proud of. But we still have to remember that majority of these equipments used to manufacture the ships still come from abroad. Just like the Chinese old saying, you have to give the person a fish net instead of just giving him the fish. In this case, you have to teach that person how to make the net instead of just giving it to him.
Don't get me wrong, I'm Chinese myself and I'm proud of these developments. I just don't like the fact that a lot of people get either overly cocky or paranoid about China's development. Yes, indeed we are developing fast, but there are still many areas that we can improve. One shall live in fear caution rather than live in comfort. We can only improve when we know our weakness, instead of daydreaming about how great we are.
antiterror13
Brigadier
so you are Chinese, why do you use "Pugachev", sound like Russian ?
I agree with your analysis, I am Chinese myself, but I am not blindly "patriotic"
I agree with your analysis, I am Chinese myself, but I am not blindly "patriotic"
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Show me the reference and sources instead of quoting your friend I will dig the info myself if I have time Other than that it is your word against mine. I can also write about a guy who wrote in forum that he can't find any American CNC that can match Chinese CNC quality. So it is BS!
What do you know about Steel? Steel is hardened the same way whether it is Ballistic steel or any other steel. There is no magical formula about Carriere deck steel If it meet the measurement in Brinnel, It should be applicable to any thing Armour or Ship deck.You just have inferiority complex toward Germany. I spend my younger year in Germany. went to University in Germany I speak, write read fluent German. There is nothing magical in Germany. I have high regard for Germany and have close German Friend. In fact my sister in law is German
I don't day dream and I am not even born in China or ever been Chinese citizen. But I just can't stand BS. No country will depend on other country for strategic material.
Last edited:
Red___Sword
Junior Member
It is true the situation you mentiopned that some people, for all sorts of causes, over praised China's development. Just FYI, many of those people, are non-Chinese people who have their own agenda, 捧杀 is one of them.
But haven't I know you better (at this fourm), I would have put (consider) you into the 2nd group of people - those who deny the truth, with thier own agenda also. It is THE WAY you put your sentence togather, sounds too "familiar" to some, whom have constantly suffers the harass, from the 2nd group of people.
Back to the asymmetries of navy balance... first, JSDF do not have a TITLE of "Navy", but they are more Navy-ish, than most of the country of the whole world.
but second, like I said, if I too agree with you that China's certain tech issues have a long way to go - I would also NOT TO, consider things that do not consititute into MILITARY MIGHT, into "advantages of tip the naval balance" - for japan's side.
Whether or not I pity "the leash over japan's neck", I try my best to look into japan's ON BORN, ON BIRTH, NATURAL - disadvantages (and advantages), rationally. - by that, I stick to my claims: certain "here and there" tech advantages, do not actually constitute into military might. (Europ fell under mongolians horses, although they made better steel, for example.)
Wind tunnel, blastic science, outer space research (that benifits "@#$% MIGHT"), higher class of mathamatical algorithms, non-puppet national economic structure, even national food reserves... stuff like that, requires CALIBERs - caliber that by far, few (three, actully) met.
So call "....balance", is something COLD HARD TRUTH, I believe.
Last edited:
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
"Crystal Harmony" built by mitsubishi. (Knowing some people that crewed on her I had the privilege in going on board at her home port just to have a look, while visiting Japan, (yrs ago) but I think she's since been renamed.
The company that owned her had another 2 cruise liners that visit NZ, "Crystal Symphony" and the" Asuka". I think the "Crystal Symphony" was built in one of the Scandanavian countries while the "Asuka" was also built by Mitsubishi.
Tha "Asuka" has been renamed the "Armadea" and was last in NZ waters in March.
Friends of mine that work for the "Company" that operates the ships, told me that the companies new ship is being built in Scandanavia as well?
Last edited:
pugachev_diver
Banned Idiot
Read it here. I don't understand why you always get paranoid when I say things about China that is lesser than your level of praise. You always seem to think that I'm making false claims as soon as I say something that doesn't meet your liking.
We should be objective about the things that China can do and cannot do, instead of always praising, or like some Westerners, always condemning.
Believe it or not, I actually study in this field. Ballistic steel are very different from steel used in carrier decks. Although a lot of these steel look similar on paper, they very greatly in extreme situations. Ballistic steels don't have to stand extreme heat, at least not for long. Usually they just endure fraction of a second of strong blast and it ends there. Whereas carrier deck steels are constantly heated from the excess heat generated by the boilers (this is not much for this grade of steel, but it will do damage after decades of wear and tear) and especially the few thousand degrees of torture from the jet engines. Fighter jets have to turn on their afterburner when launching from a carrier, which will torch the deck after many seconds of exposure. Then the relatively cold steam and moisture from the sea could weaken the steel. It might not be visible at first, but definitely will after many years. (Personal thoughts, if the Indians make it, it probably crack after few months, just like the stadium built for the Commonwealth Games) It also has to resist corrosion of sea salt, along with possible attacks from anti ship missiles. This is the same as jet engines used in commercial jets and fighter jets. They have to be used over and over again, which stress is the main factor. This is why Chinese missile engines can match the level of reliability to those Western counterparts, but jet engines cannot.
There are so many factors in treating a steel to meet different demands. It is a lot harder than most people think it is. There can be more than 20-30 stages in treating just a single slab of steel. Variations in each step will produce very different steels. Some steels may share 29 common steps, except that one last step, makes all the difference in its performance.
Please do your research and know the right facts, instead of finding random sources to support your argument.
Last edited:
Last edited: