Global Powers Economic and Military influence throughout History

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

Below is a comment outlining a commonly held percption of China made by a respondent in the "Economist" regarding the same article we are discussing,. (i think)


"Subsidizing their manufacturers (and taking from Chinese consumers) through the RMB peg, cheap loans, property transfers, VAT rebates to exporters, and various hidden measures. Indirect subsidies like lax environmental, quality/safety and labor standards. Disguised ways to selectively help Chinese companies, like extra scrutiny of WFOEs, selective enforcement of labor, tax, censorship, IP and environmental laws, selective enforcement of quality/safety standards, government procurement rules, and state-owned media campaigns against foreign companies. And the elephant in the room, of course, rampant, systematic and state-backed IP theft, which has been the biggest wealth transfer (read theft) in the history of humanity. It's death by a thousand cuts, but don't think the rest of the world doesn't notice what China does."

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:roll:
A lot of hand waving:
Hidden measures?
Indirect subsides?
Disguised ways?
Selective enforcement?
And Chinese getting rich is theft? Gee... Why doesn't he just cut the b.s. and say he hates everything China-related? I would respect him more if he does.

In anycase, if there are complaints against China, then China must be doing something right, and China should keep on doing what it is doing.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

the one guy who is pretty hardcore about this stuff is krugman, i used to have respect for him but after he said "let the Chinese dump the dollar" i no longer think well of this person

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

Krugman is a joke and the whole Nobel prize system is even a bigger joke (Obama? Dalai? and Krugman?). Studied this guy extensively in my MBA and still think that he has lost his sensibility. Every westerner are louding google on upholding moral values and how about if China dump all the US treasuries? Will that effect only US and China? what about the rest of the world? waht will that action add to the already unstable and uncertain economic condition around the world? Even if he is right about the US benefiting from CHina dumping the dollar, will he personally take responsibility for a double dip recession that is going to cost even more misery to the rest of the human race? so much for moral superiority...

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

Youre right , its very hard to buy into were are allowed to do it because you did it arguement

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I'm not saying "we can do it because you've done it". I did saying it in my previous post that "I'm in no way saying what China does is correct". I'm saying "don't act like what China is doing is so crazy and outrageous that no one in history can even comprehend the scale of China's "crimes"", while they themselves did the exact same thing and even more only a couple hundred years ago. If both parties have done the same thing, why does one think he has the right to criticize the other one?

The more constructive way would be to help China come up with an alternative, but we all know if that's going to happen... This is a dog-eat-dog world. No one will help someone else so that the helped can beat the helper. So it's up to nations like China to come up with solutions themselves. It's won't be pretty, but at least it's working. China is moving up, Chinese live a better live and the most of the world also benefits from China's economic development.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

It'll be interesting to see if the US pulls the trigger. US politicans are just doing this for show for the American public. Unless the US economy collapses they will never see American outsorced jobs come back because even if what the objective behind of wanting Yuan revalued works pricing out Chinese labor to be less attractive to outsourcing, they'll just move to another low-wage country not back to the US. And by some estimates the target of 40% revaluation, which the critics want, won't really change anything. So US politicians will keep demanding another revaluation simply because it's the easiest way to show the American public that they are doing something to get outsourced jobs back. It's like how some Senator or Congressman will draw up a bill that sounds really good to the American voters but they know it will never pass. The Senator or Congressman just draws it up just to show the voters that they did something for them.

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

One could come up with a similar if not higher claim by suggesting for eg;1% of the deaths in China are premature due to enviromental degradation

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What?? I hope you are not serious about this claim. 'cause if you are, I'd think you are out of things to argue and only trying to be a smarta$$...

And environmental degradation did not start from China. I hope you have some knowledge of the terrifying environmental disasters in both Europe and America between 1700 and early 1900's in coal mines, mineral mines, textile factories, steel factories and oil industry, to name a few. I would say that the death caused by environmental hazards in these areas was way above the 1% you quoted. Even now, China is definitely not #1 in the environmental degradation department. So considering how long Europe and America have been in an inductrial society, the total casualty caused by environmental degradation should be MUCH higher than that in China.

So combining 300 years of environmental degradation and the brutal exploitation, the damage and casualty in the Western society in the quest of economic development is MUCH higher than China has ever had (Please do not use cultural revolution as an argument as it had nothing to do with the current economic development in China).

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

No i wasnt serious, just an off the cuff remark.

However Im a bewildered by your take on the Industrial revolution in Europe/Americas and estimating the respective human damage when comparing it to Chinas.

The first industrial revolution in Europe occurred late 18th century or early 19th century with the 2nd industrial revolution begining in the mid 19th c.and finishing early 20th Century.By adding on say 70yrs of the 20th Century one only has 170yrs maybe 200yrs at a pinch, of enviromental degradation, not your 300yrs.and the population base is much smaller.

Chinas industrialisation process should be measured from 1958 with the start of the great Leap Forward where it has been estimated that 38million died from starvation alone.(at a guess I would say that would be the entire UK population prior to WW1, in 4yrs alone)...........

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Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

I wonder if too much importance is being paid to the amount of IOU's China holds when considering about 70% is held by American orgs and citizens.

Perhaps the Fed govt could monetize some of the 14Trillion Pension fund instead of relying on China's largess

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

The first industrial revolution in Europe occurred late 18th century or early 19th century with the 2nd industrial revolution begining in the mid 19th c.and finishing early 20th Century.By adding on say 70yrs of the 20th Century one only has 170yrs maybe 200yrs at a pinch, of enviromental degradation, not your 300yrs.and the population base is much smaller.

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It's only supposed to be an estimate.

bladerunner said:

Chinas industrialisation process should be measured from 1958 with the start of the great Leap Forward where it has been estimated that 38million died from starvation alone.(at a guess I would say that would be the entire UK population prior to WW1, in 4yrs alone)...........

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I don't think China in 1958 was doing any of currency manipulation and other stuff mentioned in the quote you listed in an earlier post. And I don't think any American politician is criticizing China for how the things Chinese govn't did back in the 1960's are still affecting the US and costing American jobs. So the focus should be the economic development starting from 1992.

And let's let go of the great leap forward. Nearly everyone on this planet knows it was wrong and what China is doing now is the complete opposite of what they did back in the 60's and 70's. One is communism to the extreme and the other is capitalism to the extreme. Plus, all the movements back in the 60's amd 70's had been more politically driven than economic. So you cannot mix them up and say all of that should be included in consideration of China's economic development. It's a different era. It's like saying that we should also consider the Dark Ages when we look at industrial revolution...

Re: US media claimed: Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao critized the US

bladerunner said:

No i wasnt serious, just an off the cuff remark.

However Im a bewildered by your take on the Industrial revolution in Europe/Americas and estimating the respective human damage when comparing it to Chinas.

The first industrial revolution in Europe occurred late 18th century or early 19th century with the 2nd industrial revolution begining in the mid 19th c.and finishing early 20th Century.By adding on say 70yrs of the 20th Century one only has 170yrs maybe 200yrs at a pinch, of enviromental degradation, not your 300yrs.and the population base is much smaller.

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I see you conveniently left out the colonization of America, the wiping out of entire civilizations, the slave trade, the Opium War, etc. etc. Environmental degradation is the least of evils on the Europeans' path to power.