Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.


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Anlsvrthng

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China doesn't need EUV .

They need to master all tool making and general production of 45nm parts and processes, the other doesn't really matter.
 

localizer

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Inside a cutting-edge EUV machine 50,000 droplets of molten tin fall through a chamber at its base each second. A pair of lasers zap every drop, creating a plasma that in turn releases light of the desired wavelength. The mirrors guiding this light, made of sandwiched layers of silicon and molybdenum, are ground so precisely that, if scaled to the size of Germany, they would have no bumps bigger than a millimetre. Because EUV light is absorbed by almost anything, including air, the process must take place in a vacuum.
ASML has around 5,000 suppliers.
 

Anlsvrthng

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45nm still bring benefits for low tooling cost.

Smaller size will benefit the mobile /extreme small stuffs , however I think the weight /size gain marginal.
 

AndrewS

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China doesn't need EUV .

They need to master all tool making and general production of 45nm parts and processes, the other doesn't really matter.
China already has more people than the rest of the developed world, and the economy is still growing fast.
So in 20 years, we could expect China to have a larger market for goods/services than all those countries.
And also to have a larger economy and R&D spending.

It's inefficient for China to have to redevelop an alternative for every technology (especially the niche ones) but it can be done.
But eventually, the Chinese version should be cheaper and better than the version using US technology.

So in the technology space, I think China does need to develop cutting edge semi-conductor technology, in order to secure its supply.
 

Anlsvrthng

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Registered Member
China already has more people than the rest of the developed world, and the economy is still growing fast.
So in 20 years, we could expect China to have a larger market for goods/services than all those countries.
And also to have a larger economy and R&D spending.

It's inefficient for China to have to redevelop an alternative for every technology (especially the niche ones) but it can be done.
But eventually, the Chinese version should be cheaper and better than the version using US technology.

So in the technology space, I think China does need to develop cutting edge semi-conductor technology, in order to secure its supply.
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What cutting edge ?
The advancement of the semi industry stopped decade ago, wasting resources to resurrect the dead cats (pushing billions of dev funds without the hope to achieve anything significant) is pointless.

The future is not the semiconductor manufacturing, that will become commodity by the time.

The best computers will be the analogue computers , but those requiring highly trained and very smart designers/programmers.

A monkey can design a digital CPU and make software for it, but for analogue you need geniuses.

The analogue using 1000* more effectively the transistors than the digital.
 

AndrewS

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What cutting edge ?
The advancement of the semi industry stopped decade ago, wasting resources to resurrect the dead cats (pushing billions of dev funds without the hope to achieve anything significant) is pointless.

The future is not the semiconductor manufacturing, that will become commodity by the time.

The best computers will be the analogue computers , but those requiring highly trained and very smart designers/programmers.

A monkey can design a digital CPU and make software for it, but for analogue you need geniuses.

The analogue using 1000* more effectively the transistors than the digital.
With EUV, we're now seeing Moore's Law continuing.

And its doubtful that semiconductor manufacturing will become commoditised.

There are currently only 3 companies which are able to stay at the cutting edge. And there are very few equipment suppliers because it is so specialised.

In the future, we may see quantum computers or neural network computers etc. It would be great if China could leapfrog to this technology, but it's going to take time and its not proven viable yet.
 

10thman

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I don't know analog computer, just sharing a link
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What cutting edge ?
The advancement of the semi industry stopped decade ago, wasting resources to resurrect the dead cats (pushing billions of dev funds without the hope to achieve anything significant) is pointless.

The future is not the semiconductor manufacturing, that will become commodity by the time.

The best computers will be the analogue computers , but those requiring highly trained and very smart designers/programmers.

A monkey can design a digital CPU and make software for it, but for analogue you need geniuses.

The analogue using 1000* more effectively the transistors than the digital.
 

Anlsvrthng

Senior Member
Registered Member
With EUV, we're now seeing Moore's Law continuing.

And its doubtful that semiconductor manufacturing will become commoditised.

There are currently only 3 companies which are able to stay at the cutting edge. And there are very few equipment suppliers because it is so specialised.

In the future, we may see quantum computers or neural network computers etc. It would be great if China could leapfrog to this technology, but it's going to take time and its not proven viable yet.
Moore law is absolutely irrelevant.

IF the Intel supply an IC for 100$ contain 1 billion transistor on 4 cm2, with 3 GHz clock and x speed, or they supply a CPU on 0.1 cm2 with the same parameters and cost the same money then what ?

Nice, we have way less area to cool the CPU, and the mobile thickness will be 0.2mm smaller.

Now what ?
The ICs speed limiter is now (for a decade) is the cooling.
Shrinking the size of the die with EUV will make the cooling more problematic, without providing any other benefit.
 

AndrewS

Captain
Registered Member
Moore law is absolutely irrelevant.

IF the Intel supply an IC for 100$ contain 1 billion transistor on 4 cm2, with 3 GHz clock and x speed, or they supply a CPU on 0.1 cm2 with the same parameters and cost the same money then what ?

Nice, we have way less area to cool the CPU, and the mobile thickness will be 0.2mm smaller.

Now what ?
The ICs speed limiter is now (for a decade) is the cooling.
Shrinking the size of the die with EUV will make the cooling more problematic, without providing any other benefit.
For datacentres, but they still benefit from very large numbers of more advanced chips which use less electricity per calculation.

For mobile applications, limited battery life is the biggest issue. Cooling is secondary.
 
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