Future PLAN Forecast Thread: Number, disposition, etc.

schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
Personally I think my estimate (at least for surface combatants) is a bit on the conservative side.

I put it at about 36 DDGs and 36 FFGs by 2020, but I think it's very possible to reach nearly 48 of both types in the water, depending on how well they manage an expansion in manpower and the state of the domestic economy in funding such vessels.

I think the number of FFGs won't sink much below the current ~48, as there are still a lot of relatively young 053Hx. If they keep building 054As (or their successors) at rates similar to recent years numbers might even grow unless they retire ships earlier.

I'm not sure a bigger slow down in the economy would necessarily lead to less naval ship building. In the last slow downs China speeded up high speed rail construction as a way of deficit spending, but as China is running out of high speed rail lines to build they might see a naval buildup as a way to keep at least parts of the economy going.
 

schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
Whoops, yes a typo. Let's see if I can edit it.
I'm also surprised at how relatively little focus there has been in a number of western PLA observers at the increase in surface combatant capability over the last decade (namely surrounding the rapid induction of 054As and 052C), not to mention few places making accurate projections of the PLAN's surface combatant force by 2020, 2025 and 2030 and beyond. One only needs to look back five years, or ten years to appreciate the advancement in capability made so quickly and the potential progress that can still be made in little time. I would say the PLAN's surface combatant capabilities are more worth watching than their carrier ambitions, amphibious assault goals, and even submarine development.

Perhaps part of the reason might be that those warning about a rising China might not want to bring attention to the fact that the PLAN's ships were pretty obsolete not so long ago and even now there are still quite a number of obsolete ships to replace.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I would say the PLAN's surface combatant capabilities are more worth watching than their carrier ambitions, amphibious assault goals, and even submarine development.
Yes, the surface combatant growth is amazing.

But I believe that the watching them develop them together...ie. carrier, amphibious and submarine (particularly nuclear submarine) at the same time is indeed very worthy of note.

There is a concerted effort across a broad front to bring all of these capabilities fo4rward together and they are doing it. The difference in all of these capabilities when compared to ten years ago are all equally astounding given what existed at that time.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I think China would be very comfortable if their Navy is roughly 1/3 as strong as the US Navy, I believe it could be achieved by 2030 ... I don't see China would achieve >50% as strong by 2050
 
I think China would be very comfortable if their Navy is roughly 1/3 as strong as the US Navy, I believe it could be achieved by 2030 ... I don't see China would achieve >50% as strong by 2050

I think thinking of the PLAN relative solely to the USN is misleading. The PLAN will want to be at least as powerful as all its First Island Chain neighbors' navies combined including whatever the USN bases in the area.
 

joshuatree

Captain
I think the number of FFGs won't sink much below the current ~48, as there are still a lot of relatively young 053Hx. If they keep building 054As (or their successors) at rates similar to recent years numbers might even grow unless they retire ships earlier.

Unless they are opting for a standardized frigate fleet of 054As and will lease out the 053Hxs? Pakistan will be leasing the 053H2Gs.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Is it actually that soon at all, considering the advancements in technology that have been made since the first 054A was launched? The PLAN has always been quite good in buying a sensible amount of ships relative to the capability they provided relative to the time they could have an improved capability commissioned.

A universal VLS can be built into the existing 054A hull. So can be with other sensors, armaments, automation, even propulsion. To me, that's more like 054A+++ or Flight X. I don't think that's a development that should be held off. But are others thinking of frigates with their own scaled down AESA panels or a completely new hull? In that line of thought, I rather they ramp up 052D production and build up a sizeable destroyer fleet first.

Yes, absolutely 054As will serve for 20-30 years, but I'm not talking about a frigate designed to succeed the 054As in service but rather to supplement and operate alongside them, just as 052Ds supplement and operate alongside the 052Cs. New technologies from the common VLS, to active radar guided SAMs, newer propulsion types, greater automation, improved combat systems, improved radars for frigate sized ships, all make the current 054A look a bit long in the tooth.

That said, I'm not necessarily proposing an entirely new hull for succeeding 054A. I think they could potentially lengthen the hull, add in the new common VLS, overhaul the ship's electronics from radar to combat management, replace things which aren't needed like the terminal illuminators, and maybe even adopt IEPS type propulsion... all these improvements would more than warrant designating a new designation.

Agree with no new hull.

Building an 054A successor doesn't mean they'll lose the manpower, the experience, the skills, or the supporting equipment they will need to build export 054As -- for instance the F22Ps built for Pakistan at HD were effectively 053H3s, but 053H3s had been out of production at HD for three or more years at that point. Also the C28As built for Algeria are an original hullform design. No, if anything, building a more advanced frigate will mean more work for the shipyard and enhance their skills and efficiency to build ships that the customer wants.

We don't know enough about the shipyard's distribution of personnel to know if cutting frigate production will mean they can suddenly increase the rate of LPD or LHD production -- for instance in 2010 and 2011, HD launched 054As at a rapid pace at about two per year while also launching one 071 per year. Similarly I don't expect destroyer production to suddenly be cut at either JN or DL. Both shipyards are expected to continue with 055s after they're done with 052Ds, and they will also be the contractors for carrier production.

I was thinking more about ship crew manpower. Shipyard resource and experience I am not too concerned about. As I suggested, one of two shipyards can switch gears to producing 052Ds. The other can still be 054A and that slows the production rate but the line is active for PLAN and any potential export orders.

Also, regarding manning, in coming years I expect frigates built prior to the first 054 to be retired, and many of those crews will be re-assigned to new ships, and the PLAN will also probably seek to increase total manpower numbers. The increase in absolute manpower will contribute to a sustainment and expansion in manning major combatants.

Yes but the concern would be is the rate of new ships being commissioned matching the rate of decommissioning? It would seem more like the rate of new exceeds and that means new crews. Not a bad thing but again, those new crews need time to hone their skills. So in my opinion, reducing to a few successful platforms would be a wise move for the immediate future. Let that stabilize and when the next phase kicks in, then you have a much larger experienced crew base to work with. Also, keep in mind, the experienced crews of 051s, 053HXs, 037s are themselves making a huge leap forward in honing their skills with the modern platforms now at their disposal. And crews age and retire too.
 

nemo

Junior Member
I think China would be very comfortable if their Navy is roughly 1/3 as strong as the US Navy, I believe it could be achieved by 2030 ... I don't see China would achieve >50% as strong by 2050

Really? What if I tell you PLA's capital expenditure, on purchase power terms, is around 75% to 100% of US, right now?

The economy of China, in PPP terms, has just passed US last year. China roughly spend half per GDP basis, compare to US.

The difference is that while China spend roughly 30% on personnel, US spend around 50% -- because in addition to the troops, Pentagon also has 700K civilian workers -- so you can actually say China and US has about the same number of persons working in the military. China actually spend quite a bit on training, operations, and maintenance-- something like 37%. US is spending at least 30%. So the amount left for capital expenditure is a little more than 30% of China, and less then 20% for US. At 20% figure, China spends around 75% compare to US for capital (equipment, etc) expenditure. At 15%, China spends around 100% of US spending.

Around 2030, China's economy is expected to double in respect to US.

Granted, capital stock (accumulated military gears, etc) take time to accumulate, but capital stocks need to be replaced due to aging, damage, obsolescence, etc (30 year replacement cycle is a good rule of thumb). By 2030, Chinese capital stock is going to be close to US.

Now you want to tell me that by 2030, China is going to have a smaller military than US?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
A universal VLS can be built into the existing 054A hull. So can be with other sensors, armaments, automation, even propulsion. To me, that's more like 054A+++ or Flight X. I don't think that's a development that should be held off. But are others thinking of frigates with their own scaled down AESA panels or a completely new hull? In that line of thought, I rather they ramp up 052D production and build up a sizeable destroyer fleet first.

I'm not sure if the 054 hull is large enough to install all the kinds of new generation subsystems we're thinking about, while also leaving enough space left for future refits and not to mention more space for crew (see the debacle facing Flight III Burke). But even if a new frigate was based on the same 054 hull with things like the new common VLS, new radar and mast, improved combat management system, and even new propulsion, that would more than validate an 054B designation. Given 052B, 052C, 052D were all successive evolutions of each other and the differences between 054 and 054A, I'd say the aforementioned modifications are more than enough to give it a wholly new designation.

Yes, IMO I'd prefer they build a slightly larger, new frigate hull to accommodate the new subsystems while also having more room for crew accommodations and room for maintenance overall. Frigate production will remain at HP and HD, they will continue building 052Ds and 055s at JN and DL.


I was thinking more about ship crew manpower. Shipyard resource and experience I am not too concerned about. As I suggested, one of two shipyards can switch gears to producing 052Ds. The other can still be 054A and that slows the production rate but the line is active for PLAN and any potential export orders.

I doubt we will see either HP or HD produce destroyers.

I see the need for an ocean going modern frigate which is smaller than 052D and more expendable, while also retaining the same class of ASW capability and near 052D AAW capability but lesser VLS capacity. 054A is good as an ASW platform, but there is room for improvement. Bigger bow sonar, space for UUVs to complement the TAS and VDS, two helicopters rather than one, more modern and quieter propulsion such as IEPS... combined with demands for newer AAW including active radar homing SAMs, quad packed SAMs, a new radar (whether it be fast rotating APAR or fixed face APAR), using the larger and more volume heavy CCL VLS. Then there's also need for greater crew comfort and room for future upgrades that will necessitate greater room too.

Yes, all this can fit on a 7000+ ton hull like 052D but will likely cost more than a frigate should, while installing all these systems on the same 054A hull is probably impossible or at least will leave little room for future upgrades and crew comfort. So I'm proposing a 5000+ ton hull slightly larger than 054A but still smaller than 052C/D.


Yes but the concern would be is the rate of new ships being commissioned matching the rate of decommissioning? It would seem more like the rate of new exceeds and that means new crews. Not a bad thing but again, those new crews need time to hone their skills. So in my opinion, reducing to a few successful platforms would be a wise move for the immediate future. Let that stabilize and when the next phase kicks in, then you have a much larger experienced crew base to work with. Also, keep in mind, the experienced crews of 051s, 053HXs, 037s are themselves making a huge leap forward in honing their skills with the modern platforms now at their disposal. And crews age and retire too.

Unfortunately, we have no idea what kind of manpower situation the PLAN faces. It goes without saying that they will have to upskill and increase their manpower as well as their retention of manpower, but we obviously have no idea what the specifics are and no idea how rapidly they can expand surface combatant numbers without straining their output of new officers and enlisted personnel.

More importantly the number of crew also has little influence on whether PLAN should build more 054As or a new frigate design to succeed it after the 24 hull run, as new crew would have to be trained for the new ships anyway. If anything, a new frigate design with more modernized automation can reduce crew numbers per ship somewhat to relieve manpower burdens.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Does the PRC need any where near 1/3 the power of the US Navy? The US is a Global Navy by both power and more critically geography being on two large Oceans the Atlantic and Pacific. The USN there fore uses this to spread into the world waters.
the PRC by geography needs into the China Seas and Indian ocean and by concentrating there can easily out number the USN Presence in the Region.
 
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