F-22 Raptor Thread


Jeff Head

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In another forum a retired US Navy Captain (Surface Warfare specialist) posted this...

Nuff said..
Yes...the US definitely holds back on the actual operating parameters. Weapon ranges, radar performance and ranges, sonar, top speeds (ie. US Naval Aircraft Carriers can do a LOT more than 32 knots if they have to...even said to be able to outrun most torpedos if they can get oriented to where it is a straight stern chase).

But then, I expect that is also a two-edged sword because I have no doubt that adversaries with capable systems (ie. the Ruskies) do the same thing. Then it comes down to intelligence and what we each REALLY know o each other beyond the "official" specs.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Re: USAF F-22 Raptor (With PAK-FA Comparison)

I don't have hard data but your 'data' is at best mere speculation. While I am positive the Raptor has better RCS I doubt it is in the order of 100X better than J20.
No speculation for US, ofc more for T-50 and J-20 in development maybe can be improved ? all the experts say canard for J-20 is bad for RCS and the two have less good RAM quality, logic that is their first stealth fighter.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
Heh! Heh! Heh!, I would have to say "prejudice" against the T-50, which one could say is the most attractive of all the aircraft represented on this thread, maybe the YF-23 second on looks, and guys "looks sell airplanes".

But the YF-23 has a better RCS due to integrating the Horizontal Stabs and Rudder, and we have the Ruddervator, helps reduce drag and rcs, but it gives up a lot in the agility department, and the F-22 will kick the lovely YF-23s butt any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not only does the F-22 have a very rapid pitch transition, it has OVT, and mass centralization, which means the CG is located midpoint or so on the fuselage, hence supermaneuverability, the much better of these two aircraft won out, the T-50 is likely number 2 in agility, but gives up a lot in RCS, so is almost NOT in the fifth gen competition IMHO! brat
Some nice recent T-50 photos :




I was swooning when the T-50 first appeared back in Jan 2011, everyone was expecting a Mig 1.44 rehash or Flanker modification. Front profile is really sexy, reckon it will look like the Black Widow when they remove all the test instrumentations then put RAM and paint jobs on her?

They are going to implement an interesting EW suite on the T-50 like, rear radar, cheek radar arrays, forward wing slat array, though you got to wonder how are they going to manage those emissions.
Side looking cheek radar array :


Many of those features are still under development as well as numerous others, I'm thinking that the scientist/engineers involved with the project are pulling all the stops on this bird because chances like this only comes once in a life time
The other interesting thing is how they are going to solve the issue of engine cowling and nozzle from being a RCS hot spot.

Official statements say the T-50 will have better maneuverability than the Su-35, and it's already doing some crazy maneuvers. Well its a Russian plane with a Russian pilot. But then again low altitude low speed maneuver says nothing about high altitude combat maneuver where the actions happen. And the Raptor still has the superior engine.
[video=youtube;RvzIOgylEnE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvzIOgylEnE[/video]
Waiting for the day J-20 comes up with this sort of thing
 

paintgun

Senior Member
9:20 port side LEVCON and starboard horizontal vert. deflect independently from the counterpart
Watch it in full screen :)

[video=youtube;b7kP7_vViSk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kP7_vViSk#t=602[/video]
 

AssassinsMace

Brigadier
Does anyone recall reading this article?



PRC is still behind in new material technology vital in reducing radio cross section figures.
And Japan would rather have F-22s or planning on buying F-35s...

I know of you from another forum so I'd suggest you read the rules because don't do what you do there over here.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Some nice recent T-50 photos :



I was swooning when the T-50 first appeared back in Jan 2011, everyone was expecting a Mig 1.44 rehash or Flanker modification. Front profile is really sexy, reckon it will look like the Black Widow when they remove all the test instrumentations then put RAM and paint jobs on her?

They are going to implement an interesting EW suite on the T-50 like, rear radar, cheek radar arrays, forward wing slat array, though you got to wonder how are they going to manage those emissions.
Side looking cheek radar array :


Many of those features are still under development as well as numerous others, I'm thinking that the scientist/engineers involved with the project are pulling all the stops on this bird because chances like this only comes once in a life time
The other interesting thing is how they are going to solve the issue of engine cowling and nozzle from being a RCS hot spot.

Official statements say the T-50 will have better maneuverability than the Su-35, and it's already doing some crazy maneuvers. Well its a Russian plane with a Russian pilot. But then again low altitude low speed maneuver says nothing about high altitude combat maneuver where the actions happen. And the Raptor still has the superior engine.
Waiting for the day J-20 comes up with this sort of thing
I have no problem conceding that the T-50 is likely a better airshow aircraft, and there is NO doubt the Russians are Master Shoman, they pull out all the stops, the Raptor airshow is/was more of a tactical display, and Max, and his succesors did not/ will not depart the aircraft at low altitude, and it appears that the T-50 is not being departed in these videos, there is simply too much at stake, very outstanding airplane, and she doesn't have a bad line on her, the reigning beauty of the bunch, and flys very well tooo! brat
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I have no problem conceding that the T-50 is likely a better airshow aircraft, and there is NO doubt the Russians are Master Shoman, they pull out all the stops, the Raptor airshow is/was more of a tactical display, and Max, and his succesors did not/ will not depart the aircraft at low altitude, and it appears that the T-50 is not being departed in these videos, there is simply too much at stake, very outstanding airplane, and she doesn't have a bad line on her, the reigning beauty of the bunch, and flys very well tooo! brat
It will be interesting to see the new sixth gen as the F-22 has set the bar very high for a follow on, some of the sketches seem to show a tailless or even a YF-23 type configuration, I suppose we shall see. It doesn't appear that the new birds are any great source of new technology, as the F-22 maintains far more capability than the upstarts??? brat
 

Jeff Head

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It will be interesting to see the new sixth gen as the F-22 has set the bar very high for a follow on, some of the sketches seem to show a tailless or even a YF-23 type configuration, I suppose we shall see. It doesn't appear that the new birds are any great source of new technology, as the F-22 maintains far more capability than the upstarts??? brat
i actually started a 6th gen US fighter thread, but it was lost during the recent cyber-attacks. I wll repost today or tomorrow.

Lockheed and Boeing are both working on a couple of nice looking designs.



 

thunderchief

Senior Member
There is one factor often neglected when we talk about aerial combat between fifth gen fighters : current top of the line AAMs all use active radar homing on target ( I'm talking about AIM-120 , R-77 , Derby , MICA-EM , Meteor ... ) . Basically , all of these missiles have one small radar they use to lock on the target . And now you see what is the problem - small radar means small antenna and short range . Even against non-stealthy fourth gen fighters , those missiles need data-link updates because range of their sensor is at best something around ~10 km (in reality even less )
And now , consider same missiles against target with lets say 50 times smaller RCS (5 sqm against 0.1 sqm ) - and that means about 2.65 less range for small radar in the missile nose and 7.07 times smaller base of the radar cone (see pic) . Pk will go down drastically , rendering ARH AAMs almost useless . Most likely , air combat between fifth gen fighters will be in visual range or close BVR , and weapon of choice will be IR missile with focal plan array , something like small IR camera , capable of image recognition ( some modern missiles already have that ) .


 

Jeff Head

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...all of these missiles have one small radar they use to lock on the target . And now you see what is the problem - small radar means small antenna and short range . Even against non-stealthy fourth gen fighters , those missiles need data-link updates because range of their sensor is at best something around ~10 km (in reality even less )

And now , consider same missiles against target with lets say 50 times smaller RCS (5 sqm against 0.1 sqm ) - and that means about 2.65 less range for small radar in the missile nose and 7.07 times smaller base of the radar cone (see pic) . Pk will go down drastically , rendering ARH AAMs almost useless . Most likely , air combat between fifth gen fighters will be in visual range or close BVR
The current production versions of the AMRAAM AIM-120D are deigned in their BVR engagement to be extremely network centric and avoid these difficulties and maintain the strong BVR advantage the US holds.

The AIM-120D uses a two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in inertial navigation system (INS). But the targeting information can come from multiple source and not just the launching platforms radar. For example, it could come from an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

After launch, the aircraft that launched the missile, or one of several other surrogates can intermittently, or constantly track the target, and transmit periodic updates—such as changes in the target's direction and speed—to the missile, allowing the missile to adjust its course so that it can close to a self-homing distance (whatever that may be) and acquire the target aircraft.
 
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