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Scratch

Captain
is this yet another attack at the newest USF FFG? :) but the German concept of putting just a 5" and one or two launchers (and not adding for example anti-submarine sonar/torpedo tubes) on a destroyer-big hull is ... puzzling

Those F125 are some kind of a hybrid of multiple desires. For some time the german navy wanted some kind of an LPD light / combat support type ship. A vessel to support light amphibious approachesa nd SOF support. But also do counter-piracy, VBSS stuff etc, a F122 replacement. The F125 is what came out eventually. Like the K130, just even more so, be highly automated, with the capacity to stay deployed long term with a multi-crew concept.
Designed in a time when warfighting was a bit "out" in german politics and the softer patrolling was easier to sell, it was a political thing to not make it a real destroyer, although the navy got all the tonnage. There's still F124s for AAW and F123s for ASW.
There was the idea of putting GMLRS on the vessels. This was droped, unfortunatly. They also thought about putting a PZH2000 turret on it, tested on a F124 as the MONARCH concept. Not adopted. Apperently it worked. However, the PZH2000 not being a naval gun by design, rate of fire and traverse speed of the gun were too slow to use it as another AD weapon besides RAM. So they went for the Otobreda. The Volcano ammo will provide up to 100km range with guided ER projectiles.
I have no clue about the status of the RBS15 Mk IV, though. It went a bit silent on that front, unfortunatly. In concept an awesome missile. We still have some Harpoon, so a good interim. Although the NSM would have been great as well.
Additionally, the ship is supposed to take part in / lead (multi)national task forces.

I honestly don't know if they're built with much spare room for later refitt. But I doub't there'll be enough space left for a VLS. Maybe something like an extended range Spike-NLOS. Or a GMLRS. But I believe they'll turn out to be good and capable vessels for their intended purpose.
There might be a K131 type later on, geared more towards conventional ASuW.

On the equipment front, TerraN, that's a mess of it's own. Several years ago, when the Treassury wanted to save money to achieve a 0 debt budget, our then "star to be" SecDef zu Guttenberg made the quick announcement "I have a few billion to spare". Which of course he didn't have, but he made the move. The money was cut out of maintenance and spare reserves. That bites back really, really bad right now. When we're being told the super very high readiness reaction force element in the Bundeswehr will be fully night combat capable, it probably comes at the cost of pooling all Bw "Lucies" in that one Bataillon ... :)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Looks like those giant air blimps are making a come back. The US Army supposedly have one as well.
The UK government wants to get this massive airship back in the air
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The US is using blimps as radar pickets right now...particularly around DC.

They have one for Warning and then a second one to assist with Fire Control against incoming missiles.
 
Those F125 are some kind of a hybrid of multiple desires. ...

thanks Scratch!

I'm suspicious about the value of this class, and four ships are to be built, which then will have to be protected against aircraft/submarine threats thus drawing (some of the) Sachsen-class while there're only three of them ... but I'm not going to contact the Deutsche Marine LOL
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
thanks Scratch!

I'm suspicious about the value of this class, and four ships are to be built, which then will have to be protected against aircraft/submarine threats thus drawing (some of the) Sachsen-class while there're only three of them ... but I'm not going to contact the Deutsche Marine LOL

I think the F125 will be able to defend itself for ASW and AAAW in the types of missions and environments it is sent into.

If it is a part of a SAG or other Task Force that expects heavy, saturation level anti-shipping missile attacks, then there will be a Sachsen or other allied anti-air frigate or destroyer or two along to handle that.

But for missions envisioned for the F125 where it is the Task Force leader, or when it operates alone, it will not be a mission where that level of threat is remotely expected.
 
I think the F125 will be able to defend itself for ASW and AAAW in the types of missions and environments it is sent into.

If it is a part of a SAG or other Task Force that expects heavy, saturation level anti-shipping missile attacks, then there will be a Sachsen or other allied anti-air frigate or destroyer or two along to handle that.

But for missions envisioned for the F125 where it is the Task Force leader, or when it operates alone, it will not be a mission where that level of threat is remotely expected.

thanks Jeff, I probably overlooked what you described, and I wasn't going to respond at first (so that I don't look like I want to have the last word LOL), but a moment ago I found about this:
German ground force resources are
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external.png
(German) to be so poor that they had to resort to using painted broomsticks instead of guns during a NATO exercise in 2014. These same soldiers belong to the presumably on-call NATO rapid reaction force and are supposed to be the troops deployed before others.
(the middle paragraph in
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which quotes
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-- I have no idea if this is a credible source, and I don't know the German language ... I just quickly did google-translation of several parts ...) and my point is if the German Military needs as many as four huge "peacekeeping" ships while experiencing problems mentioned above (assuming, of course, the article is not a hoax or something)?
 

Scratch

Captain
Unfortunately, Jura, that is not a hoax. The Tagesschau is a quiet reliable source and that issue is widely reported elsewhere. All this is part of the equipment misery I quickly explained above. The four ships were ordered years ago and the keel laying of the last unit was about 3 weeks ago I think. With the contracts in place, there's no point in abandoning the ships now. And I also believe we do need new frigates to keep the navy properly ocean going.
The enormity of that equipment issue is rather new, although I believe it has been quiet some time in the making. Procurement is under massive scrutiny right now anyway, as there has been a heap of massive screw-ups lately.
Everybody knows about it. By the same token, noone in controll wants the BW to give up core capabilties and thereby kill major projects. So we carry them on. But then there's not going to be new money either. Just the desire to stay internationally involved to remain relevant politicly.
 
Unfortunately, Jura, that is not a hoax. ...

that's what I feared ... but thanks Scratch for the confirmation and your views!

to me, the F125 is hull wasted (but support of the steel industry :) but issuing "painted broomsticks" instead of rifles to supposedly elite soldiers ... I facepalm ... now I actually started to laugh while thinking about the color of that paint LOL what was it?
 

Janiz

Senior Member
The said broomstick was painted black Jura. Here's more on that story.

Troops tote broomsticks at Nato war games

Published: 17 Feb 2015 17:11 GMT+01:00

The Defence Ministry scrambled on Tuesday to counter media reports that its forces were so under-equipped they had to use broomsticks instead of machine-guns at Nato manoeuvres in Norway.

It's one way of sweeping your adversaries from the battlefield, a defence ministry spokesman acknowledged while fielding the umpteenth media inquiry about the widely-reported incident.

And it was true that a black-painted broomstick was observed on a vehicle of a German convoy in Nato's new rapid response force, he told The Local.

But the armoured car was a mobile HQ and was not required to carry a real mounted weapon during the September exercises.

It was also true that much of the German force that participated did not have weapons: according to media reports, 41 percent of the soldiers lacked pistols they would carry in a genuine rapid deployment situation; and 31 percent of the MG3 general-purpose machine-guns were absent.

But this reflected the general short supply of equipment in Germany's armed forces, which was no secret and was addressed by rotation of certain hardware among units in a "very dynamic way" when required, according to the ministry.

Like other contributors to Nato's Response Force, German troops would have 30 days to amply arm and equip themselves for any deployment.

The troops sent to Norway were part of a test phase for a new faster reaction 'spearhead' the 28-member military alliance decided to form last autumn. It will comprise at least 4,000 Nato troops and will be able to deploy in 48 hours.

The German command had fully equipped its segment of the new force two weeks ago, the spokesman added.

Regarding the now famed black-painted broomstick, "Why the soldiers still simulated a weapons system is professionally incomprehensible", the spokesman added.
 
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