broadsword
Brigadier
Falafels and lamb kebabs with flatbreads are delicious.
Europe Refugee Crisis
- Thread starter solarz
- Start date
plawolf
Lieutenant General
It is no easy thing to shoot and kill another human being, even if they are ISIS fighters.
The vast majority of people have such strong instinctive aversion to killing other people that the most famous and comprehensive study on the matter, conducted after WWII found that only 15-20% of allied troops actually shot to kill against exposed enemy soldiers.
Most of the time, the remaining 80% either did not fire, or only fired in the general direction of the enemy.
The results of this study fundamentally changed western military training, and resulted in 80-100% of soldiers shooting to kill during the Vietnam war and ever since (which, incidently, co-incides with significant increases in both alleged war crimes committed by troops as well as instances of soldiers developing mental and neurological conditions after the war, like PTSD etc, which I see a strong casual relationship between the two, but that's another subject altogether).
Suffice to say, the vast majority of untrained civilians are simply not mentally equipped to fight in wars.
In addition, most of the people we see fleeting are families with small children.
As all parents will attest to, having children changes their world view entirely.
Even decorated war veterans will find their loyalties and bounds of brotherhood soarly tested if the price of staying with their unit is that their families will be left unprotected and at the mercy of the likes of ISIS (who goes out of their way to show they have no mercy) and/or bandits, human traffickers or worse.
Given the obvious dangers and all the deaths that had occurred. I think it is also improper to suggest economic opportunism as the main motivation for these people to flee.
Thousands or more have died trying to reach Europe, you do not take that kind of risk unless you were truly desperate.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
What's confusing watching and reading the news is ISIS' relation with the some of the Arab states. Are Arab countries really in fear of ISIS as I see reported on the news? Saudi Arabia doesn't seemed to be worried about ISIS in Iraq on their northern border. But down south the West applauded when Saudi Arabia took independent military action on the insurgency in Yemen. The difference between Iraq and Yemen is the rebels in Yemen are Shia. Saudi Arabia worried about Iran... Shia. They fund rebel factions against Assad in Syria... Shia. What's the ethnic religious makeup of the refugees? That would be interesting to find out because if they're Shia also, then you know why the rich Arab states are not taking in refugees and if they're fleeing Syria, that would serve their anti-Assad/Shia agenda.
Well of course they did if they could. They are trying to save the lives of their loved ones.
They are trying to get as far away from the hideous violence and killing as they can...and to countries they feel might take them in. That's why.
It is one thing to defend yourself when someone is directly trying to take your life or seriously injure you, when the choice is either to die or be seriously injured, or to fight..
Have you ever had to do that? In my almost 60 years of life, I have...twice. It is not an easy or pretty thing.
It is an entirely different thing to hear of, or see on TV, an approaching evil, that is probably going to come to your neighborhood or region, with overwhelming force, and somehow try to organize to fight it, or stand against it piecemeal when your family is in the line of fire.
Some people cannot comprehend it, and wait too late to do anything...or even then cannot imagine the brutality or evil of other ideologies. The Jews of World War II come to mind. Millions of them died as a result.
Even then, the ones who could afford to get out, generally did. That is not cowardly. That is not greedy. That is simply caring for your loved ones.
Do you have a wife and children? Do you have grandkids? Most women, children, grand kids, the elderly, and even a lot of men, are powerless in the face of such evil. Particularly in an area where the rule of law is non-existent, and people of differing faiths are not respected by one side or the other anyway. In large areas of Syria and Iraq, this is the case. In virtually all of Libya this is the case. There are no real "authorities" to turn to.
I mean no offense, but saying that folks trying to get their loved ones out of the path of such evil are greedy or cowards is basically out of touch with the reality that they face.
If you knew that a bunch of crazed killers, who have proven their callousness for life...and who are well armed and organized, were apt to come to your region and ultimately attack your home, your faith, and kill you and your wife and children...and probably seriously abuse them sexually and physically before doing so...do you seriously think it would be cowardly to get them all to safety if you could?
Well, I have five kids and eleven grandkids and I would do all in my power to get them to safety. Sell everything I had and use all my resources if that's what it took.
...and I will tell you, when it comes to such danger, either man-made evil like this, or even of the natural variety...time is of the essence. If you see it coming, or suspect it is coming...my advise would be to get your family and loved ones to safety immediately. Do not wait.
And my advise would be to go with them to get them there...in order to make sure unscrupulous people did not take advantage of them en route.
Then, when you get there, with a lot of people of like mind...perhaps then you talk about organizing to go back and fight.
I have said all of this as an older person with a lot of experience under my belt to try and impart a little wisdom from that perspective...and I do so as an individual with a large family of my own, and an absolute commitment to them and to our freedom.
But this is veering off topic and can easily lead to ideological rants and nationalistic fervor.
Let's try and get back to talking simply about the facts of what is happening...and how the crisis is effecting the defense situation of nations involved.
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broadsword
Brigadier
The reason the Arab countries are not extending their welcome to the refugees - other than Egypt and Lebanon, which between them have accepted more than a million - is mainly because the smaller Arab states are already vastly outnumbered by foreign workers. Refugees are issued temporary visas, which means their future is uncertain. Instead, they Arab countries donated money to support the refugees who fled to foreign lands.
Because of the restrictions on going to the neighboring Arab countries, including Egypt, they opt for Europe.
Because of the restrictions on going to the neighboring Arab countries, including Egypt, they opt for Europe.
solarz
Brigadier
Not all refugees are equal, far from it. Refugees fleeing a brutal war should be, IMO, accorded far higher priority than people who fabricate stories of government oppression in order to settle in a wealthy country.
Of course they should...particularly if they are fabricating.
At the same time, there are people who are seriously oppressed, jailed, tortured and killed for their beliefs.
Each nation's policies regarding this, and their immigration and naturalization agency has to ferret out the differences.
But for some who (along with their family and friends) are jailed, tortured or abused, and/or killed...the differences between fleeing that situation and fleeing a war torn area are very similar in terms of its impact on them.
I'm honestly not prepared to take that, IMO, lame excuse.
Many of those Gulf States are still rather sparsely populated (in general) and very obviously are too small (as in citizens) to sustain their own construction work force requirenments. As shown by that large number of foreign workers. Now here is a large group of peolpe "available" that speaks their language and is culturally very close to their own population. So inducting them as new citizens should be the easiest thing for them to do. The Gulf States have the money and the jobs to do so. Besides they are also always the ones to shout, mainly west-ward, for support and solidarity with their arab "brothers", and /or brothers in faith.
Yet they outright reject the refugees. I've seen the idea that a reason for this is exactly because the refugees speak the language of the local population and as such may very easily transfer news of what's going on really. Which may bring about problems for the Gulf states with their own citizens, not being too happy about what's going on.
I also do not buy that money argument. The same topic came up here very resently in Germany. Saudi Arabia declared they were ready to financially support by building 200 more mosques. Now considering the religious philosophy of that state, I think that offer was particularly not helpfull or honest in actually caring for the refugees.
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