Europe Refugee Crisis

This crisis has obviously been brewing for a while, but now that it has reached mainstream media, it has become too big to ignore. With no end in sight on the wars in Iraq and Syria, we will likely see even more refugees in the coming years.

As the article explains, a large part of the crisis comes from the fact that EU nations are not willing to follow the rules set out by the EU. This crisis could very well be end up destroying the union, IMO.

These people are fleeing Libya, Syria, Iraq, etc.

The mayhem has become far too great for sane people of reason to countenance, be they Christian, Muslim, Yazidis, etc...and they are voting with their feet.

Particularly with the atrocities of ISIS.

Also, on this thread, like other SD threads...we simply cannot allow political blame on the US, Syria, Iran, etc. for these atrocities or the migration.

Once the US defeated AQ Iraq and the insurgency and had a large residual force in place...Iraq was headed for a much better condition. But then the US precipitously withdrew under the current administration and gave place for ISIS.

Conversely, Assad, without numerous nations helping his detractors, would never have descended into what has been going on for the last 6 years. Bush at least knew how to deal with Syria. But numerous nations either tried to force a different solution, or took advantage of the situation...which allowed ISIS to grow there too.

The Iranian (Shia) - Saudi (Sunni) struggle has been around for many, many years...yet we have not seen this level of mayhem.

Over throwing Qadafi...as bad as he was...after he had basically capitulated to the west (in terms of his stirring things up) was also a grave mistake. I say, as bad as he was...what exists now is MUCH worse.

Egypt, IMHO, barely avoided falling into the same quagmire...and they are going to ensure, for their own borders at least, that they do not get sucked back into it.

I say these things...not to be political at all...but to show how there has been a part, over the last 6 years in particular, on all sides creating this tragedy. All sides should do all they can to get back to conditions (in some places not possible) that existed before this chaos...or to come as close as possible.

I pray we can see Syria stabilize...and IMHO, that means that Assad stays in power. However bad some believe he had been...his regime never experienced or supported the kind of chaos that is gripping large parts of that country now.

I believe Egypt has come back from the brink.

I think Iraq, if its leaders would truly set aside their sectarian bias and corruption (and they can with the right impetus...we saw the various sides come together with US help in defeating AQ Iraq)...and that would mean getting help from the Kurds, from Iran, and from others. If they did this, I believe they could defeat ISIS on their own soil. But they have to give the various tribes/groups a reason to come together and help make it happen. To date, they have not done this.

Getting Iraq back to a more stable state is harder than it would be in Syria, but it could be done..

Libya is something else again. It is now, IMHO, a completely failed state, with no really strong force in place...or willing...to pull it back together again.

Anyhow, until things like this happen...and those solutions will hav to be balanced so that all powers (meaning Iran, Saudi, the US, Russia, Europe, etc.) see some kind of equalization that they can all take away a little with, the migration will continue unabated and hundreds...even thousands...will continue to die trying to cross the MEd to get out of there.

What's sad though not surprising is zero Arab nations have step in to help the Syrian refugees or just the refugee crisis in general. I think that alone speaks volumes!

I'll repeat here what I've said in the pub recently: I'd suggest everybody who comments on the
Europe Refugee Crisis
to consider if (s)he would've said the same (whatever it is!) if
ten times more; hundred times more
refugees/migrants/displaced persons had been arriving.

solarz said:

As the article explains, a large part of the crisis comes from the fact that EU nations are not willing to follow the rules set out by the EU. This crisis could very well be end up destroying the union, IMO.

Click to expand...

While I agree that this situation currently puts a massive strain on relations inside the EU, I do take issue with those striking "not following rules" statements, on so many levels.

If we start with these percieved border control violations. The concept of freedom of movement within the EU, or more precisely the "Schengen" area is ment to apply to legal citicens of the participating nations. It's ment to ease travel and business. When there are large numbers of foreign nationals who have entered the union uncontroled and unregistered, a completely different issue arises. And to initiate controls to find those is, IMO, the very task of security organs.

Which brings me to the next issue. Border control. Especially if we create such a large area with free movement for personal and goods, properly controlling the surrounding borders is a core requirenment. As such I see nothing wrong with firming a border and forcing people to enter via proper border crossings to get registered.

I also believe we can't critizise certain countries for being too lose with finding, registering and holding back refugees, and then critizise them again when they enforce these things.

I also very much agree with Kwaig here on that the countries which are the most active in supporting certain armed factions in the core regions to further their causes aren't at all interested in alleviating the problems arising from it.

Scratch said:

While I agree that this situation currently puts a massive strain on relations inside the EU, I do take issue with those striking "not following rules" statements, on so many levels.

If we start with these percieved border control violations. The concept of freedom of movement within the EU, or more precisely the "Schengen" area is ment to apply to legal citicens of the participating nations. It's ment to ease travel and business. When there are large numbers of foreign nationals who have entered the union uncontroled and unregistered, a completely different issue arises. And to initiate controls to find those is, IMO, the very task of security organs.

Which brings me to the next issue. Border control. Especially if we create such a large area with free movement for personal and goods, properly controlling the surrounding borders is a core requirenment. As such I see nothing wrong with firming a border and forcing people to enter via proper border crossings to get registered.

I also believe we can't critizise certain countries for being too lose with finding, registering and holding back refugees, and then critizise them again when they enforce these things.

I also very much agree with Kwaig here on that the countries which are the most active in supporting certain armed factions in the core regions to further their causes aren't at all interested in alleviating the problems arising from it.

Click to expand...

It's not too different than the Palestinian crises as well. Those Arab countries bitch and moan the most yet have done the least to help the Palestinians.

The invasion of Europe?

To be fair who caused the crisis to be escalated this far in the first place? I'm not here to argue who is right or wrong, but rather to point out the causes through the various failed diplomatic policies put in place from the very the beginning from the big players including the big and rich Gulf states as well.

Yet, the biggest travesty of it all is that those countries refusing entry to thousands fleeing the Middle East are the very same countries that created the widespread violence, instability and chaos throughout the region that have caused so many to escape. It is those very same countries that created the impossible conditions that currently exist in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere in the region. It is vital that the people of the world looking on to the plight of these refugees recognize the culprits behind their suffering and unite on how to end it.

It is the policies and actions of the U.S., NATO and their Arab allies (Saudi Arabia, in particular) that have caused such destruction and such misery as to lead so many in the Middle East to flee. Thousands have been killed over recent years as a result of NATO airstrikes, and a combination of American weapons and Saudi funds that have been given to extremist thugs and organizations that have brutally murdered thousands.

Click to expand...

Hungarians waiting by the highway with food to give to the refugees who will arrive on foot.

I found it on my facebook page. It's such an amazing sight to see.

The big Golf States and the US take none of the people and don't wait for them to do anything: They never will.

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Remember the boat people after the end of the Vietnam war? The US Navy got orders to ignore them and they ignore them now. It's left to other nations to pick them up and save them.


The above statement is absolutely incorrect and without bases.

See my post in response:

HERE

During the final fall of the South, in late April and early May 1975, as a part of Operation Frequent Wind and US Navy TF 76's part in it, the US Navy saved over 44,000 seaborne South Vietnamese.

Before it was all said and done a few years later, the US saved and took in over 490,000 South Vietnamese.

I will let him speak for himself, but I believe BD Popeye here on SD may have had part in some of those operations.

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