Education..Now and the future

HeartoftheSword said:

Code Geass series also depicts America (through strong British culture ironically) very negatively.

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Yeah I was following that in Adult Swim. It looked like an alternative universe, where these is no USA, no American Revolution, and instead a monarchy called Britannia was established, although Britannia itself is not in Great Britain. GB appeared to have been conquered with the rest of the European Union by the Empire of Britainnia. Behind the monarchy is probably the most right wing, elitist, pro-Darwinian form of government ever invented based on the concept might is right.

China in the series is portrayed as never having undergone its own revolution at all, so it remains under a dynasty controlled by eunuchs under the name the Chinese Federation that appeared to rule much of Asia including India. The Federation is supporting the Japanese revolutionaries against Britainnian rule, though their own motivations are also self serving.

Later on in the second season (R2), the Japanese Revolution becomes the United States of Japan, although its a government in exile until Area 11 (Japan) is taken back from Britannia. The Chinese Federation falls as the eunuchs were deposed, and the government is replaced by the United States of China, which allies with the USoJ. (Since its an anime, both Japan and China are represented by cute princesses). Then along with the remaining states that has not fallen under Britainnian rule, they form the United Federation of Nations.

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

FriedRiceNSpice said:

I don't think that they will ever occur... eventually China will achiever parity with the United States and move towards becomming much more power than the United States, but eventually things will start to swing back into the US's favor as the US population increases while China struggles with overpopulation as well as an aging population. The US also has triple the amount of arable land and more natural resources, so in the very, very long run China and the US will find themselves at parity.

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The US is also facing its own aging population. Heck everyone does, including Europe, Japan and Russia except for India.

The problem of the US population is declining education, particularly in math and science scores in favor of liberal arts. So you end up producing more lawyers, showbiz people, financiers, etc,. The technical stuff is being neglected that the lack of it should be considered a national security concern. Our brightest minds are lawyering and suing, while someone else's brightest minds are designing space craft and such.

The US Armed Forces in a way, can be viewed as a revolving door educational institution. Its direct benefit to the US economy lies in training people to become productive people.

But technicians aren't enough. You need engineers. China is producing a lot more of these than the US. If you have seen higher education in the US, a lot of the people taking the technological courses are Asians. Even in the engineering and research departments all over corporations in the US, there is a disproportionate number of Asians.

Fried, what you are describing is a power based on agriculture and natural resources. That alone does not make you a super power. You need a population trained and educated to develop technology. The US is gradually losing that, and its accelerating because the US corporations downsizing and outsourcing, are also laying off technology positions. And the education system is a sham, which means the grads are not very good, accelerating the outsourcing pattern further and even the game companies are outsourcing code production to China, India and Eastern Europe.

Manufacturing is also a perishable skill. If you stop and outsource manufacturing, that skill eventually erodes and is lost. For example, if I were to say what is the greatest threat to the USN now is the decline of US shipyards, which only does Navy contracts now to keep them alive, since ship building has literally been taken over by the South Koreans, Japanese, Europeans and China. To have a good manufacturing labor base, you need a trained labor base, against math and science is important.

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

Public elementary education in the US is deteriorating, but higher education and private schools are still top notch. I don't think the US is falling behind, but the economic improvements in the rest of the world allowed others to catch up.

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

Well with globalization, the end result will be as China's standard of living approaches that of the United States, the flow of outsourcing will cease, leading to increased demand in labor for those technological and scientific sectors, and greater investment in the education system. Any developed nation with sufficient population, institutions, and resources can produce and sustain a well-educated labor pool.
Of course this takes time, maybe even as long as a full generation, but most likely within the timeframe of a decade or two. Although China will eclipse the United States within our lifetime, eventually the US will move back towards parity in power with China.

Also the quality of university education in the United States is far, far superior to that in China... the vast majority of the most successful Chinese are overseas educated, while about 50-60% of Chinese educated overseas stay overseas. So while less than half of China's best and the brightest stay in China, the US receives significant numbers of the best and the brightest of other countries to work in its own high-tech sector. The US not only exports high-tech projects to other nations, but also imports talents to work in its own high-tech companies, which are still the best in the world. Although these days the, "brain-drain," effect is no where near the extent it used to be in the nineties, there is still a very high number of bright professionals working in cutting-edge sectors in the US workforce.

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

I really cannot say that US university education is better than the best in China, at least it depends on what sector you are referring to. Programming? Look who tends to top Top Coder contests. Law, finance? Look where it led in the US. Medicine? Yes, I tend to think the US is best when it comes to medicine, though Europe, Japan and Singapore is right there in the edge as well. Unfortunately health care in the US is the reason why Americans are in debt. Getting seriously sick is a good way to get your family into debt.

If you don't have good public primary and secondary education, and that's what's happening in the US, the end result is the moneyed Asian immigrants, aliens and exchange students taking advantage of the superior (and *VERY EXPENSIVE**) university education of the US. The average American student cannot afford this education without a loan, a grant or a scholarship, preferably all three. The situation today is making the student loan very difficult to get. Getting a grant or scholarship means you excel in class against your fellow students. Unfortunately Asian students tend to sweep the test scores due to their strict culture that emphasizes education. Already there is ugly racial pressure in many US universities because of the disproportionate number of Asians.

And without the student loan, university grant or scholarship, you better hope your daddy is a tycoon or something.

the vast majority of the most successful Chinese are overseas educated, while about 50-60% of Chinese educated overseas stay overseas.

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Not really. The vast majority of the truly successful Chinese attribute their success from working the sweat off their backs, not through their education. Quite often, success in business forces you to "un-educate" yourself because academia does not teach you the street smarts.

Asians studying US universities are doing so because their daddies are already rich tycoons in the first place. (Tycoon is actually a Chinese word that entered the English language). So how did their daddies, who emigrated from China with nothing but the shirts in their backs, can't read, can't write, becomes hugely successful in other Asian countries? No, not through university education.

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

HeartoftheSword said:

Code Geass series also depicts America (through strong British culture ironically) very negatively.

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The main concept behind that show is that the US lost the war of independence - hence the "Empire of Britannia". America doesn't exist.

But what would you expect from a show whose basic plot line is that Japan has been taken over? Doubtless if the imperial power was China the fenqing would be screaming about racism and such.

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

USA population doesn't really grow faster than China today in you count the actual number, granted there is alot of hispanic population growth in US, but with the low education lvl of the emigrant grp meaning the education lvl of overall US citizen is going downwards while China is going upwards, but anyway, we will be colonizing the Ocean, Moon and Mars by then , so who knows what will happen

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

yehe said:

but with the low education lvl of the emigrant grp meaning the education lvl of overall US citizen is going downwards

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I suppose you have some evidence to back that up, rather than just making vague assertions and being unpleasant towards immigrants? Sometimes their children do quite well at school, and the US still attracts many well educated people.

Gents I started this theard because you have a great discussion going but in the wrong place. Feel FREE to continue your discussion on education.

bd popeye super moderator

Re: Anti US Protest in Japan

Mr T said:

I suppose you have some evidence to back that up, rather than just making vague assertions and being unpleasant towards immigrants? Sometimes their children do quite well at school, and the US still attracts many well educated people.

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It is true that most recent immigrants to America do not have a high school diploma, they barely passed high school, or they went to lower quality schools than American schools. Not to be rude, but where have you been? Haven't you read American news about America's high influx of cheap labor from Latin America and about America's public school problems? However, there are a small fraction of immigrants who are EXTREMELY bright. If you are offended by this or find this politically incorrect, then read a story book. I am interested in facts.

Nonetheless, most Latin Americans who migrated to America work very hard and get paid little, but they believe it is better than being jobless in their native nations. Most Americans (including myself) welcome hardworking immigrants, but most Americans (including myself) want a more organized immigration policy than the current one.


Anyhow, going back to what someone else claimed, population size and arable land does not equal success. If the equation was that simple, then India should be very successful because India has more arable land than China (according to some research I have read) and the second largest population. Facts show otherwise: India is mostly poor and only a very small fraction live well despite the fact that India has far more access to international aid (but not business investments) than China. Latin America should be very successful because Latin America possibly has more arable land than any other region in the entire world and Latin America has a large population. Facts show that Latin America can have areas that are very nice to very bad. Africa has lots of arable land and a large population, but Africa is the poorest continent in the world. China has the largest population, but China's population may be too large according to many people (including me). Population size and arable land helps a nation succeed, but they are NOT guarantees to success, and a large population can sometimes be a bad thing.