East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
This is a great move because it forces Japan and the West to attack their very own arguments if they oppose China's ADIZ since they both have huge ADIZ of their own.

This move has put Japan in a bad position both politically and militarily. Many have already covered the political challenge for Tokyo already, so I won't rehash what has already been said, but will focus more on the military challenge and difficulties this will cause Japan.

The most significant headache this presents Japan is whether or not to acknowledge and obey the Chinese ADIZ. If they don't acknowledge it and send anything airborne into disputed waters/airspace, the PLAAF is going to scramble fighters to intercept and that by default puts PLAAF fighters in those very disputed airspace. But they would only be there in the first place because Japanese planes went in first and did not obey China's ADIZ rules. Try as they may, even the most anti-China spin doctor is going to have a hard time make that out as a deliberate provocation by China.

OTOH, if Japan accepts China's ADIZ to follow its rules to avoid triggering PLAAF scrambles into disputed territory, that in itself is a win for China because it would in effect end Japanese air patrols over those disputed islands and waters and in effect roll back Japan's own ADIZ back beyond China's, which in effect gives China control over the airspace over all disputed territory.

In a way, this is Japan's own oversized ADIZ coming back to bite them in their butts because the outer edges of Japan's ADIZ are far closer to China than Japan. That means Japanese fighters have to fly further than Chinese planes.

On top of that, the Japanese have to deal with the reality that they only have a tiny number of upgraded F15s that are in the same league as the latest new built PLAAF Flanker derivatives and not all that many F15s left even if you add in all the non-upgraded F15s, all of which are getting long in the tooth as it is.

Quite simply, if Japan lets a 'interceptor war' develop whereby both sizes intercepts everything the other side sends into the overlapping ADIZs, then Japan losses from numbers alone since the PLAAF have far more jets available. The informal increased PLAAF activity in the East China Sea these past year or two have already put server strain on Japan's small F15 fleet. A formalized ADIZ would only see PLAAF activity increase, and Japan would have to follow suit if it wants to avoid being seen as backing down.

As I have already touched upon before, if Japan tries to go toe-to-toe with China on intercepts, it will be forced to use a smaller forced of far older planes that have to fly further to get to the overlapping ADIZs. Never mind mock dogfighting, just getting there and back will eat up the remaining airframe hours left on Japanese F15s in no time, with correspondingly higher fatigue on the Japanese pilots, who may have to do two or three or more times as many intercepts as their PLAAF counterparts.

The biggest danger I can realistically see with this move is that a Japanese F15 breaking up during a mock dogfight because of airframe fatigue and his wingman mistaking that for him him having been shot down by the Chinese.
 
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joshuatree

Captain
It only going to be a nightmare for PLAAF pilots as well where they are required to make scramble take offs every time a JASDF enters this zone.
PRC has been playing around harassing JASDF making 520 intrusions in the past year alone. Now JASDF will just return the courtesy by dong the same.

I'm sure they had already anticipated the increased scrambles when making this announcement. If anything, this now gives their air force a mission to further train upon, in this case, maintaining high tempo of ops.

The real nightmare is for commercial and civilian pilots having to do deal with a new militarized zone now. If for whatever reason there are orders coming from either side's fighters, who do you respond to without being shot down?
 

Rutim

Banned Idiot
This move has put Japan in a bad position both politically and militarily. Many have already covered the political challenge for Tokyo already, so I won't rehash what has already been said, but will focus more on the military challenge and difficulties this will cause Japan.
What difficulties will it cause?
The most significant headache this presents Japan is whether or not to acknowledge and obey the Chinese ADIZ. If they don't acknowledge it and send anything airborne into disputed waters/airspace, the PLAAF is going to scramble fighters to intercept and that by default puts PLAAF fighters in those very disputed airspace. But they would only be there in the first place because Japanese planes went in first and did not obey China's ADIZ rules. Try as they may, even the most anti-China spin doctor is going to have a hard time make that out as a deliberate provocation by China.
They were already above Senkakus in December last year maiking it into Japanese airspace for the first time? Yeah, cutting edge tactics...
OTOH, if Japan accepts China's ADIZ to follow its rules to avoid triggering PLAAF scrambles into disputed territory, that in itself is a win for China because it would in effect end Japanese air patrols over those disputed islands and waters and in effect roll back Japan's own ADIZ back beyond China's, which in effect gives China control over the airspace over all disputed territory.
Japan woun't mind about that the same as Chinese aircraft didn't when they fly past first islands chain... What's control for you? They could fly all over this space already without any warning (aside from Japanese aircraft if it's fast enough to react).
In a way, this is Japan's own oversized ADIZ coming back to bite them in their butts because the outer edges of Japan's ADIZ are far closer to China than Japan. That means Japanese fighters have to fly further than Chinese planes.
Eastern tip of the shared claimed zone is closer to Japan, western one is closer to mainland China... Middle of nowhere to tell the truth.
On top of that, the Japanese have to deal with the reality that they only have a tiny number of upgraded F15s that are in the same league as the latest new built PLAAF Flanker derivatives and not all that many F15s left even if you add in all the non-upgraded F15s, all of which are getting long in the tooth as it is.

Quite simply, if Japan lets a 'interceptor war' develop whereby both sizes intercepts everything the other side sends into the overlapping ADIZs, then Japan losses from numbers alone since the PLAAF have far more jets available. The informal increased PLAAF activity in the East China Sea these past year or two have already put server strain on Japan's small F15 fleet. A formalized ADIZ would only see PLAAF activity increase, and Japan would have to follow suit if it wants to avoid being seen as backing down.
Yeah, the same as China will send all of it's aircraft from over the country to patrol the zone... China is still bigger than the whole Japanese claimed zone still. They already have hell of a territory to patrol.
As I have already touched upon before, if Japan tries to go toe-to-toe with China on intercepts, it will be forced to use a smaller forced of far older planes that have to fly further to get to the overlapping ADIZs. Never mind mock dogfighting, just getting there and back will eat up the remaining airframe hours left on Japanese F15s in no time, with correspondingly higher fatigue on the Japanese pilots, who may have to do two or three or more times as many intercepts as their PLAAF counterparts.
In 50 years... And about F15s airframe time... I don't even know how to response but it seems like you surely know much more than anyone around here it seems (looks like you're an expert in this aspect and you're able to even talk with Japanese ASF personel).
The biggest danger I can realistically see with this move is that a Japanese F15 breaking up during a mock dogfight because of airframe fatigue and his wingman mistaking that for him him having been shot down by the Chinese.
Yeah, you surely know all about Japanese and (!!!) Chinese aircraft condition. Congratulations!

You see this as a cutting edge strategy which complety changes the situation. I see this as nothing more than a PR stunt (as Chinese made scramblings into Japanese 'zone' before) - big commotion in medias and literaly doing nothing. China can as well draw a red line around whole Pacific and it would as meaningful as this.
The real nightmare is for commercial and civilian pilots having to do deal with a new militarized zone now. If for whatever reason there are orders coming from either side's fighters, who do you respond to without being shot down?
lol, no one. You just report it to Chinese or Japanese and no one will fly to intercept you. They can't shoot in international airspace. I mean they can but this will be a clear violation of international laws. This isn't Japanese airspace (12 miles from shore) nor Chinese.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
It only going to be a nightmare for PLAAF pilots as well where they are required to make scramble take offs every time a JASDF enters this zone.
PRC has been playing around harassing JASDF making 520 intrusions in the past year alone. Now JASDF will just return the courtesy by dong the same.

In the short-term, China's AF, Coast Guard, and naval aviation would encounter lots of chaos and problems imposing her ECS air defense zone. However, over the long-run, the exercises will benefit all Chinese military, coast guard, and other government agencies involved in China's territorial security enforcement. Time is on China's side, so in a contest of wills and attrition between the Middle Kingdom and Japan, the former is on a rising curve while the latter is falling.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Intrusions into Japan's ADIZ - which extends FURTHER than Japan's EEZ claim line and well within China's undisputed EEZ.

Methinks Japan doth protest too much.

Japan has little choice, because it knows time is on China's side, so it's doing as much as it can to establish 'norm' over Diaoyu and regions of the East China Sea.
 

joshuatree

Captain
lol, no one. You just report it to Chinese or Japanese and no one will fly to intercept you. They can't shoot in international airspace. I mean they can but this will be a clear violation of international laws. This isn't Japanese airspace (12 miles from shore) nor Chinese.

But you can't assume that everything will always work as intended.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The real nightmare is for commercial and civilian pilots having to do deal with a new militarized zone now. If for whatever reason there are orders coming from either side's fighters, who do you respond to without being shot down?

How so? There are established norms for civil and commercial pilots over EEZs already, and even if their air crafts fly directly over Diaoyu islands, there are rules to deal with that too. Common sense says to stay clear of Diaoyu area, but if civilian pilots must go near the islands, then pilots should radio both China and Japan authorities for clearance.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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In the short-term, China's AF, Coast Guard, and naval aviation would encounter lots of chaos and problems imposing her ECS air defense zone.

Could you elaborate on why? And you'll also have to clarify what you mean by challenges, namely what that is relative to.

The ease of enforcing an ADIZ is dependent on a number of factors. Size of ADIZ. Availability/sortie rates of fighters that can enforce ADIZ. Expected number of foreign/military aircraft (that is to say, non civilian).

Other ancilliary factors include C2 capability and early warning, the training pedigree of your pilots, etc etc.

Let's address the points one by one:

Size: China's ADIZ is fairly small. It's actually very small, and doesn't extend very far at all beyond its borders. At the very least it's far smaller than Japan's entire ADIZ. A larger ADIZ means allocating less fighters per volume of airspace.

Availability of fighters: We've already heard of how J-11s and J-10s have been deployed to protect Y-8 surveillance planes monitoring US exercises and there were reports of J-10s flying near diaoyu to face down F-15Js. Clearly J-10s and J-11s have the range to enforce the ADIZ. Furthermore, the total number of modern PLAAF combat aircraft (J-10, J-11, JH-7A) is far greater than the JASDF's combined F-15J, F-2, and F-4J (that doesn't even include older PLAAF fighters of course). Obviously the availability of fighters to enforce an ADIZ depends on the location of relevant airbases as well as total number of fighters.
This chart displays some of the relevant airbases that can deploy fighters to the ADIZ at competitive times.
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Further, it's already been noted how Japan has a larger ADIZ (meaning diluting your fighter/airspace ratio). As plawolf has mentioned, Japan's F-2 and F-15J fleet especially, are much older than China's J-10 and J-11 and JH-7A fleets, not to mention smaller. There's what, some 94 F-2s and some 213 F-15Js in JASDF service? PLAAF has about 300 flankers of various variants and well over 200 J-10s.

Expected number of foreign/military aircraft: this is a related function to the size of the ADIZ. If your ADIZ is larger, you'll probably have more aircraft to ID and enforce. I don't see a particular advantage or disadvantage for PLAAF or JASDF in this case.


Other factors:
Training -- we don't really know. PLAAF's made vast leaps in recent years and have already been confident enough to play tag with JASDF fighters even prior to this ADIZ.
C2 and AEW -- Both sides have formidable AEWC capabilities. PLAAF has four KJ-2000 and about 11-13 KJ-200s, JASDF has 4 E-767s and some 12 E-2Cs. The force balance is relatively even, although I'd argue KJ-200 is a much more competent platform than E-2C simply due to its size (thus able to hold more processors, more space for crew rest which increases endurance, bigger crew/more consoles meaning able to control more aircraft).



Finally, enforcing an ADIZ is actually no different to enforcing a nation's own airspace, only at greater distances. The biggest difference is you won't shoot down foreign aircraft in an ADIZ -- however that's the crux of it, because China's ADIZ overlaps with the disputed islands. Japan has made a claim that it will shoot down drones (and by extension, military aircraft should be included too) that enter its airspace. That includes diaoyu/senkaku airspace.
Their less than upbeat response is a backdown.

China OTOH has never made a claim that they will shoot down aircraft over Diaoyu/senkaku airspace, only that if their aircraft are fired upon it would constitute an act of war. So the consequences are set and everyone knows what they are. Will Abe live up to his claim?
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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(Note, for all my replies I'm including PLAAF and PLANAF fighters just as PLAAF. They will operate in support of each other to enforce the ADIZ, so grouping them as one large air force presents no significant misrepresentational in capability for the purposes of this discussion)


What difficulties will it cause?

Well, it gives the PLAAF pretext for making more routine military flights, which by itself is a greater difficulty than what JASDF currently faces.
Plawolf mentioned fleet age and size, which I will answer in a later quote.


They were already above Senkakus in December last year maiking it into Japanese airspace for the first time? Yeah, cutting edge tactics...

Big difference between sending a prop driven Y-7 briefly into Diaoyu/senkaku airspace, and between having pretext for institutionalized military flights over the region.

Japan woun't mind about that the same as Chinese aircraft didn't when they fly past first islands chain... What's control for you? They could fly all over this space already without any warning (aside from Japanese aircraft if it's fast enough to react).

I'm not sure what you're saying here.


Eastern tip of the shared claimed zone is closer to Japan, western one is closer to mainland China...

Middle of nowhere to tell the truth.

Pretty sure most unbiased observers would acknowledge how large and far Japan's ADIZ is relative to its size.


Yeah, the same as China will send all of it's aircraft from over the country to patrol the zone... China is still bigger than the whole Japanese claimed zone still. They already have hell of a territory to patrol.

The difference between patrolling internal airspace and "external" ADIZ airspace, is that internal airspace can use older, short ranged fighters. PLA has hundreds of J-7s and J-8s for the task. Fortunately they also have some 700-800 modern long range fighters including ~300 flankers, 270-300 J-10s and 130+ JH-7s for external ADIZ missions, compared to JASDF, which have about 213 F-15Js and only 94 F-2s (and a smaller number of old F-4Js) to patrol all of its airspace not to mention its vast ADIZ.

Also, this chart below seems to lend an idea that more PLA bases are in greater proximity to the ADIZ than JASDF bases. I'm not sure if there are any other JASDF bases that will be relevant, and would be thankful for greater clarification.

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In 50 years... And about F15s airframe time... I don't even know how to response but it seems like you surely know much more than anyone around here it seems (looks like you're an expert in this aspect and you're able to even talk with Japanese ASF personel).

Yeah, you surely know all about Japanese and (!!!) Chinese aircraft condition. Congratulations!

JASDF F-15Js have been in service since 1981. J-10s entered service in 2006, J-11s entered service in the late 90s. PLAAF has more long range/modern fighters than JASDF does. PLAAF also has more short range/older fighters to patrol internal airspace. Crunch the numbers, it's pretty obvious those F-15Js are getting a bit long in the tooth.

I won't claim that they're going to fall out of the sky, but fact of the matter is JASDF fighters will suffer greater flight time attrition than PLAAF fighters meaning they'll have to be replaced faster, partly because they will fly more than each average PLAAF fighter, but also because they are already older. That is as much of an economic strain as a military one.


You see this as a cutting edge strategy which complety changes the situation.

But it does.
the Japanese made the claim that they will shoot down foreign drones that enter its airspace, including Diaoyu/senkaku. China's ADIZ includes Diaoyu/senkaku, giving pretext for military craft to operate in that airspace. It completely changes the situation by calling Abe's bluff and effectively ending unilateral Japanese air patrols over Diaoyu. That is the political change.
The military change is that PLAAF will now be doing far more routine patrols and flights over an area where the JASDF also operates.


I see this as nothing more than a PR stunt (as Chinese made scramblings into Japanese 'zone' before) - big commotion in medias and literaly doing nothing.

You have to define "nothing". In the last day PLA sent two recon aircraft (Tu-154M and Y-8GX), supported by fighters and AEWC. Is this different to previous air operations over the east china sea? Possibly not. However, this "PR stunt" gives the PLAAF/NAF greater justification for more consistent and rigorous operations over its new ADIZ.
that by itself is a massive change.


China can as well draw a red line around whole Pacific and it would as meaningful as this.lol, no one.

Difference is many countries all have ADIZ, so China does have legal precedent for setting it up and patrolling it. So it is actually quite meaningful.

You just report it to Chinese or Japanese and no one will fly to intercept you. They can't shoot in international airspace. I mean they can but this will be a clear violation of international laws. This isn't Japanese airspace (12 miles from shore) nor Chinese.

Agreed.
But the biggest distorting factor as I mentioned, is it throws a goddamned massive spanner into the whole "we'll shoot down aircraft over diaoyu/senkaku airspace" diatribe. If Japan does shoot at PLAAF jets over Diaoyu, it'll be war. If Japan doesn't, then it's effectively ceding some of its claim to the islands, not to mention it makes Abe look like a bit of a tool for not backing up his military's claim. (Okay, a bigger tool than he already looks)
 
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