Dreadnaught (Texas) vs. Most Modern (Iowa) Battleships

Lezt

Junior Member
Thanks Jura,

it is a very interesting topic, Bismark's therotical rate of fire is 3 RPM while most other nations are closer to the 2 RPM mark. What interests me is that in battle, the Bismark achieved a 2 RPM and American BB managed closed to 1 RPM at the Surigao straights.

One day, I will time the loading and firing drill to see what actually what.
 
Thanks Jura,

it is a very interesting topic,
to us it is, Lezt :)


Bismark's therotical rate of fire is 3 RPM while most other nations are closer to the 2 RPM mark.
it's not directly related but (according to Friedman) a Baden had 23s loading cycle against 36s of a Queen Elizabeth, some of the factors I kinda mentioned Yesterday at 2:45 PM
... off top of my head
  • sliding breech
  • uniterrupted hoist
  • electric turret (OK not completely, I'm saying simplifications anyway)
  • cartridges for powder
= obvious differences from non-Central-Power-Navies (using this to include the US and Japanese of course)

...
first point above lead to like 7s advantage
remaining points together let's say enabled the Germans using so called Depotplatform for fast-firing (basically additional level with an electrical hoist to rush shells with their cartridges up to the gunhouse, where the firing cycle then started) ... contrary to this, the British firing cycle included sending the loading cage up and down (from/to the upper handling room): the animation at wiki (sorry :) shows this:
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What interests me is that in battle, the Bismark achieved a 2 RPM
here I'm unable to comment (I don't even know the difference between 15" of Badens and of the Bismarck)


and American BB managed closed to 1 RPM at the Surigao straights.

I told you about the main reason
Oct 1, 2016
hey, seeing you online:

"With the men lying down and resting as much as possible they were exhausted due to the extreme heat and lack of air and would not have been able to continue the ammunition supply without reliefs many more minutes."
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One day, I will time the loading and firing drill to see what actually what.
exactly :)
 
Last edited:
hey Jeff I joined the group on Facebook named
Save the Battleship TEXAS!
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thought you might be interested, work is being done on the ship ... quoting from there:
For the last two months or so, Battleship TEXAS has been dealing with increased flooding in her blister tanks. We have had T&T Subsea, LLC out multiple times to help us manage these leaks, but a troublesome 6’ x 6’ area on the Starboard side (FR 114- 116, about 10-12’ below the water line) has necessitated a new approach to leak patching. T&T pro-posed a “Modular Patch System” and requested the ability to do UT testing on an almost 40’ x 30’ area covering the leaking portions. The testing was necessary to determine if there was enough steel to attach the modular patch to. The blisters were originally constructed with 5/8” steel and the tests showed that the average steel thickness in that area was ½”, which they determined was adequate to attach the patching system.

The Modular Patch System will consist of a steel support grid, and aluminum modular patch sections. The support grid will be fabricated from ¼” x 6” wide steel flat bar. Both vertical and horizontal members will be spaced 4’ apart. The support grid will be backed with ½” closed-cell neoprene rubber and fastened to the hull with underwater Ramset fasteners. The edges will be sealed 100% with underwater epoxy to achieve a water-tight seal. The support grid will be in-stalled above the bilge keels, and will extend upward to just below the waterline. The grid will provide a clean, solid mating flange for modular patch sections, and will be flexible enough to follow contours and minor deflections in the shell plating. The modular patch sections will constructed of ¼” aluminum backed with 1” closed cell neoprene rubber. The patch sections will be mated to the support grid flange and fastened with underwater Ramset fasteners. The patch system is designed to be installed over current troubled areas of the blister tank, with the option of expansion in either direction in the future as needed. T&T began installation on Wednesday, November 9th and anticipates needing 5 days to install the framework. We are excited to try this out and hope it might be useful for other problem areas in the future.”

Also, it should be noted that in order for the Battleship Texas to be placed into a dry berth, she must first undergo several structural repairs such that she can be moved. Without those repairs, the Texas cannot be moved or a dry berth constructed.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
The true value of battleship radar fire control?

Obviously, radar offers a lot of advantages over optical fire control systems naming, the ability to detect, range and bearing a target in low visibility.

Now, while this is being true, this is only a part of the fire control process. Radar does not tell you what direction and speed the target is traveling at; and it does not account for currents, wind and temperature differences.

Thus the fire control computer or operators will have to assume a vector for the target or generate a derivative to approximate the vector. Mind you, optical systems are not much better as they rely on the physical dimension of the target to scale the approaching or leaving angle of the target, and the speed have to be guessed from bow waves etc. this is why navies painted false bow waves on their ships and attached panels to the funnels to break up vertical lines.

A lot of people will claim the superiority of radar fire control from Washington vs. Kirishima where Washington achieved ~20 16" hits on Kirishima at about 10,000 yards, while Kirishma landed 5 hits on South Dakota at around the same range. Why Kirishma was firing HE type 0 and AA type 3 out of her 14" guns is another question.

But I don't think it was fair, Kirishma being 20 years senior was fighting south dakota whom was shooting back, Washington snuck up on Kirishma before opening fire. so it shoudn't be an issue of radar as the battleships will be fairly well illuminated by shell fire. As the range is so short, the issue of target vector doesn't really matter, as the shell will hit within 3-4 seconds.

Thus if we ask the question of if fighting at long range, low visibility, and a target with radar warning equipment (i.e. knowing that they are being fired upon and taking evasive maneuvers) does radar actually give as much of an edge as we, with are understanding of powerful computers, would like to believe today?

I am having a rethink about how true our understanding of the realities of war is back in the day. Battleship underway unlike battleship row at pearl harbor (or tirpitz); Yamato, Mushashi, Prince of Wales, Repulse, etc. we have to remember that it is not 1 aircraft that sank them. The thing is, it took four carrier worth of stikes (~400 aircraft) each to sink the yamato and mushashi, POW and repulse took ~100 bombers. The stukas of the Mediterranean didn't acheive as much at much greater loss. Were battleships as obsolete as our F14 tomcats narrative make them out to be?
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Here is an excerpt from"The British Battleship" by Norman Friedman, page 319-320 regarding the animosity from different national engineering perspectives:

DNC also found that ships were being compared with their US counterparts, particularly after USS Washington was assigned to the Home Fleet in 1942. His battleship designer Pengelly had already reverse-engineered Washington's sister North Carolina and DNC have received more complete US data when his organization and the US Navy’s Bureau of ships conducted a joint evaluation of Bismarck, design features of King George V, North Carolina and South Dakota. DNC produced a detailed comparison in August 1943 for the Future Building Committee. Thu US ship had a considerably thinner belt (12in rather than 14in or 15in) sloped to make it more effective and it had thinner decks (3.6in to 4.1in on a 1.4in deck rather than the single thickness of 6in and 5in in the British ships; Multiple layers offered much less effect than a single thick deck). The US ships had no armor deck forward of its citadel, where King George V had a 5 in to 2-1/2 in deck (and a 4-1/2in deck aft; the US ship was protected only over its steering gears).


US turret protection exceeded British. However, shell-handling was 'simplified to a degree which would not be accepted in H.M. Service" The 5in gun house were much lighter than British 5.25in and were considered much too close together to survive a few hits. For DNC, Washington had a much smaller armored freeboard, inferior deck armor and a soft forward end. Weight was wasted on a heavily armored conning tower. Torpedo damage to North Carolina revealed a greater chance of flooding over the third (i.e. middle in British parlance) deck because it was lower in the ship - a feature DNC associated with the US ship's lower armored freeboard. DNC doubted that the US triple bottom offered any advantages (it had been given up in later design). The Massive US superstructure made for greater top weight, so that despite the greater beam of the us ship, she had only greater metacentric height than King George V. Washington had suffered from vibration from the onset and it was still a problem at high speed; King George V was notably vibration-free. DNC did not say so, but that had serious operational consequences: apparently South Dakota suffered a devastating electrical failure during her battle off Guadalcanal due to vibration jarring circuit-breaker loose.


The US ship had considerably greater endurance, but DNC pointed out that US endurance was judged on a differently basis from British. He thought Washing designed for best endurance at 18-25 knots, whereas King George V had been optimized for endurance at full power. DNC made no comment on the higher steam condition in the US ship, but by this time the E-in-C was working to adopt similar steam condition in new designs for the Royal Navy. British officers were impressed by the more rapid initial turning of the US ships (tactical diameter 580 yrds vs 930 yrds at 14 knows full rudder) which DNC ascribed to a willingness to accept a less efficient underwater form (including a shorter hull) Later DNC found out that the US battleships had twin rudder, which also made for tighter turn. Other comparison showed that British electrical equipment was far heavier than US, both because the British continued to us DC power and because DEE insisted on using lead insulation for cables.


Comparison continued during the war, so that the designers of the final abortive British battleship had to explain why their ship seemed to offer less on a greater displacement than the US Iowa’s.


A British officer who visited the US Bureau of Ships in 1943 commented only that he could understand DNC's comment and the perceived inferiority of US practices, but "their ships seem to sin no more quickly than ours".
 
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