Death toll in Xinjiang riot rises to 140


xywdx

Junior Member
My take on this whole situation is this: The Uighurs seem to have instigated these riots and killed a lot of people merely for being Han. Those responsible should be punished lawfully. However it also seems that Han Chinese returned the favor in vigilante violence with a nasty racist character (i.e. going after any Uighur regardless of if they killed people or even participated in riots). Han Chinese that did this should also be punished lawfully. Chinese security forces seem to be doing a pretty good job of being neutral in this situation. If they really want to restore lasting order to the streets they will have to go after Hans that committed violence just as much as they go after Uighurs. However I doubt that will happen.
On the contrary, once arrested the Han people are generally prosecuted to the full extent of the law as opposed to minority groups who gets off much much easier. With that in mind, we have to realize that the police are mostly Han and they are also human, so they might not go after every vigilante they see after the terrifying events of July 5th.

As for the causes of this violence, it seems to me that the main thing that motivated the Uighurs was a sense of being surrounded and pushed aside, drowned in a sea of Han, in their own "homeland". Mix that with a bit of radical Islam and the fact that there is really no way for them to effectively voice their concerns through politics, and you have a recipe for violence. Uighurs should learn Mandarin if they feel disadvantaged; life is unfair sometimes and the Uighurs should understand that. People all over the world have to learn new languages to get employment. But they should also be able to speak their own language and practice their own customs within their own community. Ensuring that right would go a long way towards ending the violence and Uighur separatism. So would making a real effort to educate Uighur children in Mandarin (maybe that's being done already, I don't know, regardless its probably thought of/would be though of as "brainwashing" by Uighur separatists and dumb Westerners).
I empathize with their feelings of being surrounded, but to be honest they don't know real hardship because the government pampers them. The truth is there are people living in far worse conditions in China, and still the government prioritize minority groups above others.

Uighurs have every right to practice their own customs, they can speak their language in the public and no one will stop them or reproach them. On the contrary, I still see some North Americans who would walk up to Chinese people speaking Chinese on the streets and say "Speak English".

As it stands the Chinese government supports all minority culture as long as it respects basic human needs and has no political elements. Uighurs do have their own cultural schools where they can teach their young, but the problem is that's all they teach, and that's not going to help them much when they are a minority.

For example, I live beside a Jewish school, I can go inside and speak English with any one of the students and we would communicate perfectly fine. However, if I went into an Uighur school in China I would be amazed if more than 20% of the students can speak fluent Mandarin.

It seems to me that the Uighurs are trying to build a sandcastle to protect them from the oncoming wave of China's economic rise. All sandcastles fall eventually, and the Uighur's sandcastle isn't even very large or well built. As it crumbles they will become more and more violent and China will inevitably win. Then the Chinese will be stuck with the problem of a bitter minority underclass that underperforms economically, in education, in society, has higher crime rates, etc. etc. Lose-lose for everybody. The Chinese government has the opportunity to manage the Uighurs transition to minority status in the modern era. By allowing them to keep and promote their language and culture while integrating them into the Chinese economy by ensuring Uighur education, especially in Mandarin, and responding firmly but fairly to any violence, Uighur or Han, they can tie the Uighurs to China more firmly than repression ever could.
Their cultural school does not teach them how to survive in a modern world, no language fluency, no practical skill = no job, no income, in North America we call those people bums, but when the same kind of people appear in China, North Americans call them freedom fighters.

It is easy for other people to feel bitterness against the Han people, Hans come from the most intensive competition for survival simply because of their vast population, so they can endure hardships no other people can. As a result, they can prevail in situations where others falter, this gives the false impression Hans are privileged, and create cultural bitterness.

For example, in the gold rush period, Han people were sometimes defaulted the worst possible locations when no Caucasian man wants it. Because of the stoic nature of Han people, they were able to make a decent living off of those gold sites where no white man could, this resulted in much bitterness.(Source can be found from any North American high school History text book)

Minority events on holidays occasions are over represented compared to their population, minority students in Universities are also over represented, but the Uighur population as a whole does not want to be part of a greater society.

I can say that the Chinese government has tried to appease the minority groups through pretty much any means within reason. Most likely anything you can think of has either been considered or tried, but people will always find things to complain about.

When I see these events, I just want to shout out in frustration, WHY ARE PEOPLE NEVER SATISFIED?
A split second I always scold myself for my naivety, the answer is constantly staring at me in my face......
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I empathize with their feelings of being surrounded, but to be honest they don't know real hardship because the government pampers them. The truth is there are people living in far worse conditions in China, and still the government prioritize minority groups above others.

When I see these events, I just want to shout out in frustration, WHY ARE PEOPLE NEVER SATISFIED?
A split second I always scold myself for my naivety, the answer is constantly staring at me in my face......
I suppose the only thing that would satisfy the Uighurs is a measure of political autonomy, which is not feasible because there are so many Han living in Xianjiang, and the CCP wouldn't allow it anyway. The government could really help solve the problem by creating Uighur schools that actually teach necessary skills and not just Koran memorization. But as I said I find it very hard to see the Uighurs as "freedom fighters" considering that their culture is not really being repressed and the Chinese government has really tried to help them benefit from development. As the above post by Red Mercury indicated it seems a majority of the Uighur community is just fine with the current state of affairs, and violence is done by an active minority. This incident just proves that the CCP still hasn't found a good solution to managing these minorities.

In any case, demography will solve this problem eventually.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
lol prolly soon...but the recent deaths of NATO soldiers in afghanistan just blew me away, you are getting figures like 8 british soldiers (which should be among the best in the world) in 24 hours, 15 of them in 10 days, i counted 3-4 Canadian soldiers died in the past week, quite a few Americans and other NATO members died in the past weeks as well...i think 4 more died yesterday. maybe we should start a afghanistan thread lol
:eek:ffI think the Canadians are due to pull out soon so maybe that will happen before you get rotated over there. I also read from other sources that the army gear is in serious need of maintenance, and as a fighting force, approaching battle fatigue.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Uighurs have every right to practice their own customs, they can speak their language in the public and no one will stop them or reproach them. On the contrary, I still see some North Americans who would walk up to Chinese people speaking Chinese on the streets and say "Speak English".
Perhaps its an Asian threat mentality in these people
I think its perfectly acceptable to conduct a private conversation in a public place, using the language one is more comfortable with.
But surely this tendency is found amongst the elderly and new migrants?
However I do think its bad manners, when done in close, proximity of Europeans such as workmates etc.
I use a bank that goes out of its way to attract Asian customers, and the atmosphere has an Asian ambience about it. It often attracts comments from Anglo Saxons, that if they wanted a asian experience they would go to Hong Kong , or something just as derogatory. one could often hear parents say similar things outside Schoolgrounds from parents, when they hear losts of Asian languages spoken by kids coming out from school.



As it stands the Chinese government supports all minority culture as long as it respects basic human needs and has no political elements. Uighurs do have their own cultural schools where they can teach their young, but the problem is that's all they teach, and that's not going to help them much when they are a minority.
That's not new. We have a similar problem like that in NZ>

In my opinion the average Western reader doesnt know this or just regard Chinese 'affirmitive action' as propaganda from the Chinese Information.Bureau.
Perhaps conveying the story of affirmitive action for Chinas minorities by way of a Western made documentary would be better?
 

xywdx

Junior Member
I suppose the only thing that would satisfy the Uighurs is a measure of political autonomy, which is not feasible because there are so many Han living in Xianjiang, and the CCP wouldn't allow it anyway. The government could really help solve the problem by creating Uighur schools that actually teach necessary skills and not just Koran memorization. But as I said I find it very hard to see the Uighurs as "freedom fighters" considering that their culture is not really being repressed and the Chinese government has really tried to help them benefit from development. As the above post by Red Mercury indicated it seems a majority of the Uighur community is just fine with the current state of affairs, and violence is done by an active minority. This incident just proves that the CCP still hasn't found a good solution to managing these minorities.

In any case, demography will solve this problem eventually.
Even if the CCP allow a measure of political autonomy, the local government would not be able to provided any meaningful improvements. IMHO, it's unrealistic to think a limited regional government will perform better than a strong centralized government who has access to the vast amount of resources across China.

I also recognize the need to educate Uighur to be competitive in China, but like you mentioned before it's not going to be easy, this will be seen as encroachment on their culture.

People are the most troublesome when they only know half the truth, which is the case here, there just isn't an easy solution.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The men pictured below are "Wanted in Urumqi" for inciting the riot that killed 180 people.



This photo taken of the English language government China Daily newspapoer on July 31, 2009 in Beijing shows photographs released by Urumqi police of 15 suspects still at large, under the heading "Wanted in Urumqi". Trials of suspects involved in deadly July unrest that shook the capital of China's Xinjiang region are slated to begin in mid-August, state press said, adding that "only a small number of those arrested are charged and will stand trial for the riot," the newspaper said, quoting unidentified court and police sources in the Xinjiang capital of Urumqi. AFP PHOTO / FREDERIC J. BROWN (Photo credit should read FREDERIC J. BROWN/AFP/Getty Images)
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
here is a basic history lesson for anyone who thinks "human rights" and "equality" would solve the problem. Xinjiang and Tibet used to be fairly stable under general Wang's iron fist in the 60s and 70s. in the 80s Hu Yaobang came along and came up with all these "liberalist" way of dealing with the region and it has been pretty bad ever since. if you go to China there are a lot of ppl who are quite supportive of Wang's policy and think that Hu Yaobang is just a very nice idiot. i am not saying that Beijing should revert to its iron fist policy, but just take this into consideration before some of you guys get carried away with liberalist views.

:eek:ffI think the Canadians are due to pull out soon so maybe that will happen before you get rotated over there. I also read from other sources that the army gear is in serious need of maintenance, and as a fighting force, approaching battle fatigue.
dont know if i am supposed to be saying this but there is a noticeable shortage of gears and fundings for domestic response units, i suppose the US should have similar experiences. the problem is Canada does not have a large army like the US army, and even the US land forces was approaching its full deployment capacity at one point with over 300000 troops overseas.
 
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Scratch

Captain
here is a basic history lesson for anyone who thinks "human rights" and "equality" would solve the problem. Xinjiang and Tibet used to be fairly stable under general Wang's iron fist in the 60s and 70s. in the 80s Hu Yaobang came along and came up with all these "liberalist" way of dealing with the region and it has been pretty bad ever since. if you go to China there are a lot of ppl who are quite supportive of Wang's policy and think that Hu Yaobang is just a very nice idiot. i am not saying that Beijing should revert to its iron fist policy, but just take this into consideration before some of you guys get carried away with liberalist views.
Huh :confused: I can't really follow that logic. The fact that a troublesome region has been quiet under a more repressive / iron fist type rule doesn't mean at all that such a solution would make the situation itself any better. If a people feels oppressed on a large scale and expresses those feelings, then oppressing those expressions doesn't improve the life and enhance the dignity of said people in any way. Even though the surface looks quiet.
And in my opinion, that doesn't have to do with liberal or conservative views at all. A state strong and omnipresent to the inside isn't actually a conservative idea.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Huh :confused: I can't really follow that logic. The fact that a troublesome region has been quiet under a more repressive / iron fist type rule doesn't mean at all that such a solution would make the situation itself any better. If a people feels oppressed on a large scale and expresses those feelings, then oppressing those expressions doesn't improve the life and enhance the dignity of said people in any way. Even though the surface looks quiet.
And in my opinion, that doesn't have to do with liberal or conservative views at all. A state strong and omnipresent to the inside isn't actually a conservative idea.
Hu Yaobang would say the exact same thing. the truth is, its not about Xinjiang, but the rest of China, and there is no other way to fix the issue, its easy to say all those rosy things about respect and all that crap, but in the end it comes down to protecting the rest of the country. you think NATO killing taliban's in afghanistan is a good way of dealing with the problem there? if we dont kill the taliban, then they'll remain a threat to the rest of the world (of course that is not to say i completely agree with the current afghan policy).
 

Violet Oboe

Junior Member
Though Hu Yaobang has messed up many things like the legendary multi billion $ Yen credit disaster with Japan during the mid 80's, he was right in relaxing the harsh military rule in Tibet. Without economic development there can be no sustainable control!

After all no chinese immigrants want to move into thoroughly underdeveloped regions surrounded by poor and hostile indigenous people. The main problem emerging after some time is a nationalist/religious backlash of the local people against chinese immigrants and military/security, and for this there is simply no easy solution since a concept of aggressive marginalization of natives as implemented by the US during the 19th/early20th century is not any longer viable in the 21st century.
 

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