CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread


Helius

Junior Member
Registered Member
Fair enough I'm convinced it's a bad idea, that 20k ton makes a big difference. It's surprising then you can fit CATOBAR carrier into something the size of Charles De Gaulle then.

Another thing Shilao and Xi brought up was J-15T. Assuming all three carriers will get J-15T would they all get the exact same aircraft or would the STOBAR carriers get a slightly different version without the beefed up nose gear. In their view that extra 100-200kg you save with a slim landing gear isn't worth the trouble and PLAN would probably just procure the same for all three. With all J-15T first going onto Fujian, then as J-35 becomes available it replaces some of the aircraft on Fujian and they will then get handed down onto Liaoning and Shandong.
The CDG is a much smaller CVN in every respect - shorter, narrower and at 42,000 tonnes, decidedly smaller than 16 and 17, let alone 003.

The PANG on the other hand, with a projected displacement of 75,000 tonnes, will be a closer comparison to 003. It'll be at least 5,000 tonnes lighter still, but like the CDG it will also be nuclear-powered and employ EMALS (2 catapults) sourced from the US.
 

Intrepid

Captain
Why can't E-2/KJ-600 class take off from a skip jump with jet assists take off system? Is it not enough power for those planes?
It's a heavy strain on the fuselage and radome. It will be possible. But maybe only a hundred times and not ten thousand times.

It could be an emergency procedure. For example, if a ski jump aircraft carrier is in formation as a "back-up" in case the catapult aircraft carrier's runway is blocked.
 

KevinG

New Member
Registered Member
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/goto/post?id=849530
Notice that even if we put the front end of the same EMALS catapult right at the edge of the waist deck, the rear end of the EMALS catapult (with or without the JBD) would still interfere with the front arresting cable system
I think they can just do what the French did 1) Canceling one set of arresting gear, 2) reduce the length of the Catapult, do one of them or doing both. The whole point of add the EMAL is to be able to launch KJ-600, given KJ-600 is much lighter than J-15, 26t (E-2's max take-off weight) vs 33t (Su-33's max takeoff weight), shorten the EMAL's length should be acceptable.
nmf_charles_de_gaulle_r91_light_carrier_2004-58660.jpg
 

Gloire_bb

Senior Member
Registered Member
By the looks of it, it isn't really feasible, for similar above reasons.

Furthermore, in the eyes of the PLAN, both Liaoning and Shandong are experimental. The real deal starts with Fujian.
All carriers are sorta experimental - because, well, we really have only 1 big carrier war with just 3 carrier fleets as a concrete example.
But that doesn't change the fact that all ships, starting with Liaoning, are real deal.
All 3 of them are capable of bringing modern tactical aviation to the high seas(i.e. giving PLAN fundamental capability change). That's that matters.
 

Michaelsinodef

Junior Member
Registered Member
All carriers are sorta experimental - because, well, we really have only 1 big carrier war with just 3 carrier fleets as a concrete example.
But that doesn't change the fact that all ships, starting with Liaoning, are real deal.
All 3 of them are capable of bringing modern tactical aviation to the high seas(i.e. giving PLAN fundamental capability change). That's that matters.
Moreover, from recent livestreams and podcasts from Shilao and co.

It turns out that the construction of both 001 and 002 was quite beneficial for the PLAN, not only for the experience and planning of their construction and fitting out, but they also serve really well just as training for carrier pilots (training carrier pilots turned out to not be a trivial deal, which the PLA thought it would be).

And well, they can still fight in war as well, even if they are inferior to the 003 and other catapult carriers, but they are still carriers that can launch J15s.
 

Maikeru

Senior Member
Registered Member
Moreover, from recent livestreams and podcasts from Shilao and co.

It turns out that the construction of both 001 and 002 was quite beneficial for the PLAN, not only for the experience and planning of their construction and fitting out, but they also serve really well just as training for carrier pilots (training carrier pilots turned out to not be a trivial deal, which the PLA thought it would be).

And well, they can still fight in war as well, even if they are inferior to the 003 and other catapult carriers, but they are still carriers that can launch J15s.
I would say training deck crew is almost as important as aircrew for carriers.
 

tphuang

Brigadier
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Moreover, from recent livestreams and podcasts from Shilao and co.

It turns out that the construction of both 001 and 002 was quite beneficial for the PLAN, not only for the experience and planning of their construction and fitting out, but they also serve really well just as training for carrier pilots (training carrier pilots turned out to not be a trivial deal, which the PLA thought it would be).

And well, they can still fight in war as well, even if they are inferior to the 003 and other catapult carriers, but they are still carriers that can launch J15s.

That entire livestream was quite informative. It seemed to me that China really rolled a lot of 5 or 6s in how it closed the gap with USN from when it decided on taking the plunge in 2004 to now. I remember reading a former USN officer saying that China had managed compress 100 years of USN carrier op lessons into 10 years. That's clearly an exaggeration, but it gives an idea of how USN views the advancements in Chinese carrier operations since 2012.

1) It got the most recently constructed CV from Soviet Union and paid very little for it. When CV-16 first joined service, I heard a lot of Western analysts calling Admiral K class a terrible design to copy. Well, guess what? Not everyone gets access to decades of US experience in designing Aircraft carriers. The fact that China got Varyag (with its power plant in tact) was a huge coup and they were able to do some small modifications to make it a pretty reasonable entry level carrier. The only other option they had were Spanish shipyard offers of 30k sized carrier back in the 90s. I wouldn't say China took advantage of Ukraine, but it was fortunate that such a ship was available for them to try out.

2) Apparently, there was big discussions going on inside China about whether to build a whole new carrier based on Varyag as the first carrier or modifying Varyag to put it into service. Again, a lot of western analysts said that it made perfect sense for China to put Varyag into service as a training carrier. Even so, it wasn't an obvious choice for PLAN brass, who did not have full knowledge of the difficult of carrier op. it turned out, the choice of modifying Varyag into CV-16 was entirely correct. Putting CV-16 into service sooner allowed them to start training at the sea much sooner than if they had decided to build a new carrier from the get go. And they found that carrier ops is really hard. I think Shilao's podcast said that CV-16 only believed it achieved operational status in 2019 or even more recent than that when it comes to high tempo carrier operations.

3) The decision to build a Type 002 in CV-17 before proceeding to Type 003 looks to be correct too. There is a whole new lesson to be learnt about building a new carrier from scratch that had to be learned before they can proceed to a more complicated design in Type 003. Given how smoothly Type 002/003 projects have progressed, I would say these were correct decisions. Otherwise, they'd still need a Type 003 to test out EMAL catapult.

4) The full indigenization of flankers + availability of T-10K prototype meant they were able to develop J-15s pretty smoothly. I think it's a testament to China/Russia relationship that Russia did not throw a fit at China for not buying Su-33s. As it turned out, Shilao/Yankee have said several times that Su-33 wasn't fully developed as a naval fighter. SAC had to really test and sort through many issues for J-15 to be where it is. If they had chosen to buy Su-33 or was not indigenizing flankers or picked naval J-10, I don't think it would have turned out as well. As things stand, J-15 is a great platform to support J-35.

5) Having SAC first work on J-15 and FC-31 prototype meant they are ideally prepared for J-35.

6) I didn't realize this but, they got extremely lucky with JL-9H. PLAN had not planned or paid for JL-9H development. Someone that was retired went out of his way to suggest GAIC to develop a naval version of JL-9 in case PLAN needed a trainer naval. GAIC found 100 million RMB to do the development (a lot of money for GAIC). And when PLAN realized J-15S two seater development would've cut too much money, they were happy that the much cheaper JL-9H option was available.

7) Somehow, they were able to complete EMAL development/testing almost as the same time as steam catapult, which allowed them to catch up to USN in catapult technology. Even now, Ford class is still struggling with it.

8) GWOT forced very high level of attrition/early retirement on carrier aircraft which forced USN to place very larger orders of Super hornets and very few F-35Cs. As a result, Type 003 and follow on carriers are likely to have a big 5th generation aircraft advantage over its USN counterpart (by pure numbers).

I might be missing a few, but a lot of things have gone right for PLAN.
 

defenceman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi just a little offtopic will PLAN in future be able to carry on in coming 6/8 years time without VTOL aircrafts
as one can see how much in need these VTOL are specially even been able to operate from less tonnage ACC
and need not turn churn out heavy metals with lot of time and resources
is it not possible to take on Russian Yak 141 project and from these invest in it within shorter time to get it done quickly
thank you
 

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