CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

PiSigma

"the engineer"
But the point is from "heresay" that vessel will not be finished and some don't seem to understand that not the number of posts claiming something stupid makes them true or even possible.

It is simply a fact, that a launch - at least to the same state as done with the 002 carrier - is impossible within six months and I won't accept any further claim on this as long not an explanation is given.

Again, having different opinions is fine but at least here and maybe in contrast to other forums here one has to explain and discuss.
I personally think this will take much longer than the Shandong due to the extra complexity of having a catepult, which they don't have experience building. Having additional subsystems and new design means a complete reorganize of the internal structure, which would also take time. I'm betting 2022 in water, even next year is optimistic imo.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I personally think this will take much longer than the Shandong due to the extra complexity of having a catepult, which they don't have experience building. Having additional subsystems and new design means a complete reorganize of the internal structure, which would also take time. I'm betting 2022 in water, even next year is optimistic imo.
Almost makes me wonder, if we end up seeing more acceleration of force buildup with China during the interim, they end up only making one of this class and go straight into a 90-100k tonne class after it.
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Almost makes me wonder, if we end up seeing more acceleration of force buildup with China during the interim, they end up only making one of this class and go straight into a 90-100k tonne class after it.
So are they planning to treat it as a one-off for ironing out the teething troubles of building catapult equipped CV before moving on to the real, heavy deal??
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
So are they planning to treat it as a one-off for ironing out the teething troubles of building catapult equipped CV before moving on to the real, heavy deal??
It is a possibility I think. The two ship initial trial model could be for cheaper frigates and destroyers. That's why there are 52C and 54original. Same with 71 and 75 classes. The carriers are too expensive and big to have 2 for trial.

Before anyone mention 16/17. 17 is the first Chinese constructed carrier while 16 is a renovation. So 17 is technically alone in its construction. 003 carrier could also be alone in it being a EMAL carrier that is conventionally powered. Once that is learned, they can build a 004 with nuclear power, then the only variable is the power source (big variable).

This will allow a faster learning curve I think. Once the class they like is found, the dumpling making (if that's even possible for carriers) can start.
 

Arienai

New Member
Registered Member
It is a possibility I think. The two ship initial trial model could be for cheaper frigates and destroyers. That's why there are 52C and 54original. Same with 71 and 75 classes. The carriers are too expensive and big to have 2 for trial.

Before anyone mention 16/17. 17 is the first Chinese constructed carrier while 16 is a renovation. So 17 is technically alone in its construction. 003 carrier could also be alone in it being a EMAL carrier that is conventionally powered. Once that is learned, they can build a 004 with nuclear power, then the only variable is the power source (big variable).

This will allow a faster learning curve I think. Once the class they like is found, the dumpling making (if that's even possible for carriers) can start.
I would say China will build it's first nuclear carrier after they test the nuclear engine on the nuclear ice breaker first.

In the past PLAN have always tested the reliable a engine system before the ships that use them got mass produced. The one 051B was busy visiting different countries since it joined PLAN, part of the reason might be it's the biggest and most modern looking ship at that time, but more importantly it tested the steam turbine before it powers the future carriers (long story). The mass production of 054A was also after PLAN tested its power on the 2 054, and the mass production of 052D was after the reliability of domestically produced GT25000 has been proved on the second batch of 052C (and the same but improved engine powers the later 055). And if you pay attention, basically all support ships in PLAN that's similar in size are powered by the same thing... There's a idea in PLAN (or China in general) called 通用船舶平台/Universal Ship Platform, that a proven engine system will power a lot of different ships with the same size (or just put more of them to power bigger ships).

If China decide to only have 1 nuclear powered carrier, obviously they don't need to invest in a universal nuclear engine. That's why France just use the enlarged version of K-15 (which powers their nuc sub) on the only carrier they have. But I believe China is more ambitious than that...

Not only there's gonna be more than a couple of nuc powered carriers, but the future nuc powered cruisers, AOEs, and other large ships can all use that as well. (For a example, 4 of them to power a carrier, 2 to power a cruiser of 25k+ tons, 2 to power a AOE of 50-70k tons... and etc). The ice breaker will be the platform to test the engine, and after it's proven to be reliable, we'll see a burst of different nuc powered ships been built.

Since the news of that ice breaker starts to fly around since 2018, I would say there's still plenty of time before we see the first nuclear powered carrier. And that's why I believe there's going to be a sister ship for 003... Both for training more pilots while gaining more experience using catapult, but also to have enough carrier force for operations before the nuclear engine is ready.

Here's a interesting reading for those that can read Chinese:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

banjex

Junior Member
Registered Member
To be frank, I doubt China (or any other country) will build Kirov style 25,000 tonne cruisers. Safer, more useful and probably more affordable to procure 2 type 055 for the same cost.

Do you really think AOE will increase all the way to 70,000 tonnes? Not sure that's realistic. However, even current generations of AOEs are large enough for nuclear propulsion (IIRC nuclear propulsion becomes viable starting around 19,000 tonnes displacement) so perhaps you're right.

But I think the cost and complexity of nuclear power will keep it limited to carriers for the foreseeable future. Open to ideas and further discussion.
 

Arienai

New Member
Registered Member
To be frank, I doubt China (or any other country) will build Kirov style 25,000 tonne cruisers. Safer, more useful and probably more affordable to procure 2 type 055 for the same cost.

Do you really think AOE will increase all the way to 70,000 tonnes? Not sure that's realistic. However, even current generations of AOEs are large enough for nuclear propulsion (IIRC nuclear propulsion becomes viable starting around 19,000 tonnes displacement) so perhaps you're right.

But I think the cost and complexity of nuclear power will keep it limited to carriers for the foreseeable future. Open to ideas and further discussion.
Those numbers are just for a example. My point is the engine will be universal.

The larger the scale of production, the lower the price. There will be more places where a nuclear engine will be used, and it's way more costly if every single one of them requires a different type of nuc engine. As crazy as that sounds, when there's already a mature nuc engine system (which after developing nuc powered ice breakers and nuc carriers there would obviously be one), making nuc powered ships aren't as costly as you think, and that's the value of being universal.

As for whether China will built a Kirov style cruiser, I was actually refering to the 全能舰 that Ma Weiming mentioned in the interview. I'm not saying there's 100% going to be one, but this is definately one of the place that a universal nuclear engine can be used.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Arienai I agree with your post but there will be no nuclear reactors outside aircraft carriers on surface warships, not now not in 50 years time , just not something that is practical an economical

ice breakers are not considered as warships
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Arienai I agree with your post but there will be no nuclear reactors outside aircraft carriers on surface warships, not now not in 50 years time , just not something that is practical an economical

ice breakers are not considered as warships

Why is nuclear reactor on a warship is not practical or economical, please educate me.

Is it too complex and expensive or safety reason? Why nuclear on subs is widely available even much smaller than a warship and China had the first SSN commissioned in 1974 ... almost 50 years ago. At that time Chinese economy and military power were very small and weak and the technology level was very very low. In 2020, Chinese economy like "1,000" times bigger and the military and technology strength like "500" times better
 
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