CV-16 Liaoning (001 carrier) Thread II ...News, Views and operations

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Well, there are obviously a number of roles that carriers can have for a Taiwan scenario, but also a general westpac contingency scenario.

My point is that we should be careful to not attribute the increased reach and increased range of exercises (both naval and air) of the Chinese military in westpac as necessarily being related to a specific contingency but rather developing more broad capabilities and experience that can be applied as part of multiple different types of westpac contingencies... not to mention the increased reach and location of these exercises is reflective of the overall increased competency and range of the Chinese military in a general sense, which would have occurred with or without any specific tensions (such as in Taiwan) or not.

As for carrier plans, err let's stick to what we know. i.e., that after 001A will be 002. The way it works is that we hear of rumours and we try to order rationalize those rumours into a sensible explanation -- we don't get to extrapolate out ideas that rumours have already suggested will not occur (like a second 001A when 002 is already on the cards).

I also don't know what you mean 001As are can "uniquely" contribute to accelerate PRC in Taiwan contingency and decelerate third party intervention... Is that because they are a carrier, or because they are a STOBAR carrier, or because they are just a high profile and high capability piece of military equipment? Because in all of those categories 001A is not particularly unique in assisting the PLA in any sort of Taiwan contingency or counter intervention strategy.

edit:

as for building 001A -- the rate that it's being built is probably less a reflective of any sense of urgency and more just a result of streamlined procurement and having a capable shipbuilding industry... I do not see the production of 001A or the procurement of 001A as being particularly related to any recent political developments. From what pop3 has suggested, the choice to build 001A was also due to 002 not having some of its subsystems ready (likely catapults), and the Navy decided they wanted another carrier before 002 could arrive so they went for 001A.

As pointed out in my previous post an increasingly hostile environment against China regarding its maritime territorial interests including Taiwan have been clear for years, I will add since at least 2010 to 2012, that is plenty of time to reconsider relevant military needs and plans accordingly.

Also as already pointed out in my previous post the 001A is unique in that it is the only carrier design reliable/proven enough and available soon enough to the PRC, it would also be a new build from the ground up according to Chinese specifications. If they didn't see a time sensitive need for carriers reliable enough for combat then they may as well have just waited for the 002.

There are also rumors that the 002 is delayed enough that there may be a gap between when the 001A is launched and when the 002 will begin building in the same dry dock, given they could build something else there or just leave it empty. But with the factors already mentioned this makes an additional 001A and a further delayed 002 a reasonable tradeoff.

While some political developments make a Taiwan contingency more likely the growth of China's capabilities makes it less likely.
Building a carrier is a very complex business that cannot be accelerated significantly because of some acute political circumstance.

Your first sentence is exactly me point. I disagree with your second sentence as I had pointed out before in my previous post and again above.

The relatively late acute development of a Trump presidency hostile to these specific Chinese interests, still at least several months in the making and previously a wildcard rather than expected to be accommodating, would still leave enough time to have affected even significantly these exercise plans.

Which brings me back to the interesting deployment of the 056A beyond the 1st island chain into true open ocean in the Western Pacific in these exercises which is most relevant to a Taiwan scenario.
 

weig2000

Captain
Nice to see progress on the Liaoning. Now we need to see night ops and a escort fleet and she is ready for the open seas. Maybe a foreign port call.

There is a complete escort fleet out there with Liaoning; the journey started from Bohai, Yellow Sea, East China Sea and now are going into Western Pacific, for the first time, and they have been conducting combat exercises along the way. Navy Commander Admiral Wu Shengli is on board Liaoning with the fleet. In all likelihood, it will enter South China Sea.

It's much more than a progress. It's a milestone for PLAN.
 

Franklin

Captain
Speak of the devil. ;)

MSDF spots China’s first aircraft carrier sailing into the Pacific

The Maritime Self-Defense Force on Sunday morning spotted China’s only aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, cruising into the Western Pacific Ocean for the first time via the waterway between Okinawa and Miyakojima Island, the Defense Ministry said.

The Liaoning, accompanied by three guided missile destroyers and two frigates, was spotted about 110 km northeast of Miyakojima in Okinawa Prefecture heading southeast at around 10 a.m., the ministry said.

This is the first time the Liaoning has been confirmed as entering the Pacific Ocean, ministry officials said.

The exercise is seen as part of the Chinese navy’s effort to expand its operational area to the Pacific Ocean.

The flotilla was initially spotted by a P-3C patrol plane from the Maritime Self-Defense Force, the ministry said.

The MSDF also reported that a Z-9 patrol helicopter took off from one of the frigates and flew around an area of about 10 to 30 km southeast of Miyakojima, the ministry said.

China’s official Xinhua News Agency reported Saturday that a naval formation including the Liaoning was headed to the western Pacific the same day for an open-sea training exercise.

“This exercise is being carried out in accordance with annual exercise plans,” the Chinese navy said in a statement that was also carried on the front page of the official People’s Liberation Army Daily.

The Liaoning was converted from a Soviet-built hulk that China purchased from Ukraine in 1998. After undergoing extensive refitting in Dalian, it was commissioned in September 2012 as China’s first aircraft carrier.

The Chinese military conducted its first ever live-fire drills using an aircraft carrier in the Bohai Sea close to the Korean Peninsula this month, and has more recently been operating in the East China Sea.

The navy showed pictures of the drills on its official microblog, including the launching of J-15 carrier-borne fighter jets under the watch of its naval chief, Wu Shengli.

They also conducted aerial refueling and air combat exercises on Thursday, the navy said.

China’s growing military presence, especially in the disputed South China Sea, has fueled concern in Japan and the United States. The U.S. has accused Beijing of militarizing maritime outposts and holding regular air and naval patrols to ensure freedom of navigation in the area.

The Western Pacific exercise comes amid new tension over self-ruled Taiwan following U.S. President-elect Donald Trump’s telephone call with Taiwan’s president, which upset Beijing.

The People’s Liberation Army Air Force conducted long-range drills this month above the East and South China Seas that rattled Japan and Taiwan. China said those exercises were also routine.

The Soviet-built Liaoning has participated in previous exercises, including some in the South China Sea, but China is years away from perfecting the carrier operations that the United States has practiced for decades.

Last December, the defense ministry confirmed China was building a second aircraft carrier, but its launch date is unclear. The aircraft carrier program is a state secret.

Beijing could build multiple aircraft carriers over the next 15 years, the Pentagon said in a report last year.

Successful operation of the Liaoning, originally built in Ukraine for the Soviet navy, is the first step in what the state media and some military experts say will be the rollout of Chinese-built aircraft carriers by 2020.

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Blitzo

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As pointed out in my previous post an increasingly hostile environment against China regarding its maritime territorial interests including Taiwan have been clear for years, I will add since at least 2010 to 2012, that is plenty of time to reconsider relevant military needs and plans accordingly.

Also as already pointed out in my previous post the 001A is unique in that it is the only carrier design reliable/proven enough and available soon enough to the PRC, it would also be a new build from the ground up according to Chinese specifications. If they didn't see a time sensitive need for carriers reliable enough for combat then they may as well have just waited for the 002.

Okay, I was mostly confused as to what about 001A you thought was "unique". If you are only talking about the fact that 001A just happens to be a carrier whose development means the Navy has decided to procure/build/induct between the 2010-2012 period, then I agree with you.

However, I would disagree with the idea that they bought 001A just because they had a "time sensitive need for carriers reliable enough for combat" -- I'm sure that 001A was procured partly because they felt like they needed another carrier before 002 arrived, but I also believe that the purchase of 001A is also because it would help to significantly supplement the single Liaoning carrier in the Navy for enhancing long term development of carrier proficiency. It obviously goes without saying that having a whole additional carrier means they have two carriers to conduct training with and to develop a greater pool of experienced sailors, pilots, deck crew, not to mention officers, which will make further expansion of the carrier force (via 002 class and beyond) much much easier.
In other words, I see the desire for 001A as merely the Navy having a "time sensitive need for carriers which are reliable" in a general sense, rather than necessarily wanting them to be for combat -- because the alternative is that the Navy is somehow willing to tolerate a carrier which is "not reliable" and that would be a foolish thing to procure even in peace time.


The way I see it, 002 was always going to have been "delayed" due to slow development of certain subsystems (like catapults) and the Navy was never going to rush in an 002 with subsystems they didn't consider to be sufficiently mature. that means 002 would always have only started production in year "201X" and only enter service in year "202X" and there would have been no way to "speed it up" as such because that would mean fielding an insufficiently mature carrier.

So the question for the Navy would have been about whether they were willing to only have a single carrier (Liaoning) until the year 202X when 002 would arrive, or whether they wanted to fit in another carrier (001A) before 002 arrives.
And obviously what ended up happening is the Navy decided they wanted an additional carrier before 002 arrived, and so we ended up with 001A.

Putting it another way, I see the choice of them to buy 001A not as something which was a "detriment" to 002 but rather as an "extra" or a "freebie" in addition to 002.


There are also rumors that the 002 is delayed enough that there may be a gap between when the 001A is launched and when the 002 will begin building in the same dry dock, given they could build something else there or just leave it empty. But with the factors already mentioned this makes an additional 001A and a further delayed 002 a reasonable tradeoff.

Umm. What?

You realize 002 has been confirmed to be built at JNCX right? In Shanghai? And that 001A is being built at Dalian? They will be built at completely different shipyards in completely different cities? You make it sound like you believe 002 will be built at DL??

I have no ideas what rumours you are talking about either -- the rumours over the last year all overwhelmingly suggest 002 has likely begun construction at JNCX.


I really have no idea where you are coming up with the idea of an additional 001A at all, it isn't even something being entertained by any rumours AFAIK. It is virtually confirmed that 002 will be the next carrier type to follow 001A.
 

Blitzo

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There are also rumors that the 002 is delayed enough that there may be a gap between when the 001A is launched and when the 002 will begin building in the same dry dock, given they could build something else there or just leave it empty. But with the factors already mentioned this makes an additional 001A and a further delayed 002 a reasonable tradeoff.

I have no ideas what rumours you are talking about either -- the rumours over the last year all overwhelmingly suggest 002 has likely begun construction at JNCX.

Ah I see, it is the latest update from fzgfzy that you're referring to I presume.

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That is in contradiction to the previous news and rumours we have, but okay.

However, issues that still persist with your post is the suggestion that 001A and 002 will be built in the same shipyard (they won't be), and the very idea that a second 001A will appear at all (no rumours at all to suggest it)
 

Jeff Head

General
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Speak of the devil. ;)

The Liaoning, accompanied by three guided missile destroyers and two frigates, was spotted about 110 km northeast of Miyakojima in Okinawa Prefecture heading southeast at around 10 a.m., the ministry said.

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So the Liaoning and:

1 x Type 052D
2 x Type 052C
2 x Type 054A

are traveling together.

Sounds like the Type 056 is escorting the replenishment ship.
 
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