Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)


vesicles

Colonel
You are not considering opportunity costs. Currently thousands of people are dying of COVID19 all over the world each day.

By insisting we do everything by the book perfectly, you are potentially condemning tens or even hundreds to death needlessly if a few skipped steps means we can bring a viable vaccine out months earlier than doing it exactly by the book.

In my view, the extra risk to the volunteers is pretty much the same as sending firefighters in to tackle a building fire and rescuing people trapped inside.

Would anyone argue that we shouldn’t send in firefighters because there is a real (and actually much higher then the volunteers in the vaccine trials) chance that firefighters might be hurt or killed in the blaze?

My view is that additional risks to trial volunteers is acceptable, so long as the volunteers are fully aware of that going in, and that the steps skipped do not compromise on the safety or effectiveness of the vaccine itself.

We also need to bare in mind that a lot of the steps they are thinking of skipping, like animal trials, are of questionable worth anyways. There have been plenty of examples in medical history where something passed animal trials with flying colours only to then go on to cause massive issues for human trial volunteers at the next stage.

I would classify those as nice to have additional checks rather than being integral steps that directly impact on the effectiveness or safety of the drug in question.

The true acid test has always been human clinical trials. Animal trials just help to eliminate blatantly non-viable drugs so as to minimise human losses during clinical trials.
Rules are in place to prevent abuses. We may benefit slightly by bending the rules a little this time. However, the cost of bending the rules would be opening the door to potential abuses in the future. And those future abuses may cost way more lives than the Coronavirus can ever dream to inflict. So yes, we may slow down the development of vaccines a little by adhering to the rules. However, by keeping these rules in place, we may save countless people in the end. Keep in mind that many of these rules have been put in place after lessons learned in the hard way and paid with blood and lives.

No need to panic. Given the magnitude of things, the COVID-19 is a still a minor pandemic since it kills only 2-3 % of the infected. The fatality would be even lower if we count the asymptomatic and those with only minor symptoms. However, intentionally making healthy people sick is a huge price to pay. We in the medical field always face the issue of lack of subjects to test, no matter what kind of diseases we study. With this precedence, Should we recruit healthy people to give them tumors? I can certainly justify cancer as another pandemic since it kills millions of people annually, a lot more than the COVID-19. It justifies a little urgency to find medicines, yes? I’m sure some homeless people would be willing to take the risk if the price is right and especially if some of us makes a good argument to convince people to do stupid things.

Should we do it knowing that there is a chance (2-3%) that we may kill a perfectly healthy human being? Yes, the greater good! Keep in mind that the greater good is designed to help individual human beings. And the greater good is comprised of the happiness of many many individual human beings. If we cannot even protect the currently healthy people, what right do we have to talk about the greater good? What right do we have to talk about saving the sick ones if we intentionally get healthy people sick??

And doing the greater good doesn’t mean saving millions of lives in one scoop. It means we start by saving every individual that we can save. And keeping every perfectly healthy person away from harms way. One by one.

Think of the Titanic. If you push a fat guy in your boat out in the ocean, you can save 3 more people. Would you do it? Would you kill one to save 3? I would not. Whoever has already been in the boat, I will do my best to keep them in the boat. With everyone in the boat safe, we will think of ways to save as many still in the ocean as possible. We simply cannot intentionally throw away lives to save others.
 

Gatekeeper

Captain
Registered Member
Absolutely ridiculous article! First of all, releasing the genome doesn't stop the spread; it is only a very very early step in trying to research a vaccine. You can take all necessary steps to socially distance and quarantine without knowledge of the viral genome. Secondly, China's not perfect; it's just better than any other major player out there. Blaming China for wasting this small amount of time is nonsense when the US wastes months on denial and refusal to take pre-emptive measures even after seeing China and Europe deal with its massive spread. The US can criticize China only when it does better than China; right now, it's like a fat coach potato saying Lebron James sucks at basketball.

Classic! Just love your statement "releasing genome doesn't stop the spread! This just show how our poster here getting 2 plus 2 equals 5!

As I said before it is pointless having a debate with someone with such closed mind! I'm still waiting his reply on critical thinking, and now on treason!

I think he's too embarrassed and just hope it might go away.
 

Dolcevita

Senior Member
US ordered 10s of millions of hydrooxychloroquine. Now few doctors and hospitals want them, and few other countries need them. India is one that still believe in it but they can manufacture their own much cheaper. So might as well put them to "good" use and help Brazil "save" her citizens dying from Covid-19 in large numbers daily.
Exactly why the US sending the quack coronavirus drug now since most reliable and extensive study to date shows that US FDA-approved coronavirus drug hydrooxychloroquine increase fatality rate and no evidence of benefit. Nobody wants it except perhaps Brazil. But again, Brazil is also struggling with malaria and maybe some good will come out of this anti-malaria drug. So not a total sham.

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In the study, researchers analysed data from 96,032 patients hospitalised between 20 December 2019 and 14 April 2020 with laboratory confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection from 671 hospitals. All of the patients included in the study had either been discharged or had died by 21 April 2020.

The team compared outcomes from patients treated with chloroquine alone (1,868), hydroxychloroquine alone (3,016), chloroquine in combination with a macrolide (3,783) or hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide (6,221). Patients from these four groups were compared with the remaining control group of 81,144 patients.

At the end of the study period, around one in 11 patients in the control group had died in hospital (9.3%, 7,530/81,144). All four of the treatments were associated with a higher risk of dying in hospital. Of those treated with chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine alone, around one in six patients had died (16.4%, 307/1,868 chloroquine and 18.0%, 543/3,016 hydroxychloroquine). When the drugs were used in combination with a macrolide, the death rate rose to more than one in five for chloroquine (22.2%, 839/3,783) and almost one in four for hydroxychloroquine (23.8%, 1,479/6,221).

Some of the difference in the rates of mortality is due to underlying differences between patients who received the treatments and those who didn't. After accounting for factors including age, race, body mass index and underlying health conditions including heart disease, lung disease and diabetes, the researchers found the drug regimens were associated with an increased risk of death.
 
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localizer

Senior Member
Registered Member
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Good to know that bad science is criticized.

Wished they would’ve done the same due diligence for the Huawei chip hack story and all the claims about Uyghurs and organ harvesting.
 

shanlung

Junior Member
Registered Member
Very interesting:
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So they test positive for virus, but negative for active virus.


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@shanlung what is going on there, why does Singapore need so many South Asian migrant workers?

First thing to be very very clear about is that the average Singaporean has as much say in the direction of Singapore as any North Korean in the say of the direction of North Korea. And before you tell me Singapore is a democracy, do remember the full name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.

Why Singapore need so many foreign workers is not something I can say without the midnight knock on my door.

Whether building for 60,000 foreign workers in Singapore is enough, is best decided by you if that is a joke.
D and Pompeo not the only entities with smoke and mirror and dog and pony shows.

See below the tables for numbers of foreign workers in Singapore. And you decide if building quarters for 60,000 is a joke or not.



000    Capture.JPG

A few weeks ago, I worked out in detail and reported here the numbers in dormitories to be about 500,000 to 800,000. Sadly those details were deleted and expunged.
At time of outbreak 2 months back, Foreign Workers (FWs) were packed 20 to a room in double decker beds.

And taken the powers that be days and weeks before they moved them out. And which required time too.
And were they moved out before they got infected?

Do recall in Diamond Princess and USS Roosevelt and France aircraft carrier with much better personal spacing had infection rate of 50%.

Somehow Singapore is making the world believe the infection rate of those hundreds of thousands were only about 3.5%

Leading the fight is a Minister Chan Chun Sing, being paid millions a year, who declared cotton is gotten from sheep. Or perhaps can be spun from sow's ear.

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And here are a few sampling of reports from this part of the world to illuminate the mystery here

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Do not force me to say more.

At 70++ , I hate the thought of that midnight knock on my door and the horrors that will follow me.
 

Dolcevita

Senior Member
First thing to be very very clear about is that the average Singaporean has as much say in the direction of Singapore as any North Korean in the say of the direction of North Korea. And before you tell me Singapore is a democracy, do remember the full name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.

Why Singapore need so many foreign workers is not something I can say without the midnight knock on my door.

Whether building for 60,000 foreign workers in Singapore is enough, is best decided by you if that is a joke.
D and Pompeo not the only entities with smoke and mirror and dog and pony shows.

See below the tables for numbers of foreign workers in Singapore. And you decide if building quarters for 60,000 is a joke or not.



View attachment 60592

A few weeks ago, I worked out in detail and reported here the numbers in dormitories to be about 500,000 to 800,000. Sadly those details were deleted and expunged.
At time of outbreak 2 months back, Foreign Workers (FWs) were packed 20 to a room in double decker beds.

And taken the powers that be days and weeks before they moved them out. And which required time too.
And were they moved out before they got infected?

Do recall in Diamond Princess and USS Roosevelt and France aircraft carrier with much better personal spacing had infection rate of 50%.

Somehow Singapore is making the world believe the infection rate of those hundreds of thousands were only about 3.5%

Leading the fight is a Minister Chan Chun Sing, being paid millions a year, who declared cotton is gotten from sheep. Or perhaps can be spun from sow's ear.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



And here are a few sampling of reports from this part of the world to illuminate the mystery here

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Do not force me to say more.

At 70++ , I hate the thought of that midnight knock on my door and the horrors that will follow me.
I heard somewhere in this thread where a former Indian-Nepali? migrant worker who worked in Singapore said that Singapore was wonderful with providing for migrant workers and there was zero racism in Singapore compared to "racist" China and Hong Kong. He said China and HK should emulate Singapore. What gives?
 

shanlung

Junior Member
Registered Member
I heard somewhere in this thread where a former Indian-Nepali? migrant worker who worked in Singapore said that Singapore was wonderful with providing for migrant workers and there was zero racism in Singapore compared to "racist" China and Hong Kong. He said China and HK should emulate Singapore. What gives?

:cool: :cool::cool:
Then you are free to believe in that former Indian Nepali migrant worker as you so wish.
And that the infection rate of foreign workers to be 3.5 % and far far less than infection rate of those on Diamond Princess and aircraft carriers with much better personal spacing and good food and care.

1591170114191.png

:cool::cool::cool:
 

plawolf

Brigadier
I heard somewhere in this thread where a former Indian-Nepali? migrant worker who worked in Singapore said that Singapore was wonderful with providing for migrant workers and there was zero racism in Singapore compared to "racist" China and Hong Kong. He said China and HK should emulate Singapore. What gives?
Considering I know of zero trend of Indian-Nepali migrant workers in mainland China, at best he is comparing Singapore to what he thinks China is like, and at worst its just nationalist fabricated slander.
 

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