Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)


Phead128

Senior Member
The vaccines have failed and are now generating escape variants.

The original purpose of vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death.

The only vaccines that were successful in ERADICATING diseases via herd immunity was Polio and Smallpox, mainly because they only infect humans (not animals) and mass-vaccination campaign.

Just because there are breakthrough cases doesn't mean vaccines fail.... Just look at the Influenza vaccine that only has 30-40% efficacy and they need to pump out like 4 vaccines each flu season. Does that mean Flu Vaccines are failures?
 

Bellum_Romanum

Senior Member
Registered Member
Thats called shifting the goalposts.

So after months of selling the vaccines as "preventing infection" , all of a sudden it no longer matters that they can't do that?

Total failure on all fronts.

I am for MASK MANDATES but less sanguine on vaccine MANDATES when all the options in the west are limited to MrNA vaccines. If all vaccines were made available even the ones that come and made by China (without the usual anti-China politicization) then sure let's go with the mandate but since we live in this reality the governments in the west don't much have choice left at their disposal. Not advocating for mask MANDATES and encouragement and mandating covid-19 vaccinations is beyond irresponsible, it's frankly f..ng murder.
 

Phead128

Senior Member
Thats called shifting the goalposts.
No, it's called a NOVEL coronavirus, and we are constantly learning more and more about the new virus everyday, including virulence, infectivity, mutation rates, variants, vaccine efficacy, etc.....

That's scientific method.....to constantly re-evaluate their positions when new evidence comes out to contradict their previous point.
So after months of selling the vaccines as "preventing infection" , all of a sudden it no longer matters that they can't do that?

They actually advertised "preventing infection" against the original coronavirus variant.

Then a new Delta-variant popped up which has breakthrough infections... so it fair to call it a "goal shifting" when the rules of the game itself has changed drastically?

Total failure on all fronts.

It's hard to convince me that 10X reductions in hospitalization and deaths in Israel is "a total failure on all fronts". To me, that is a resounding success of mass vaccination!

So long as people are not DYING, who gives a fuck if you have flu-like infection (mild/moderate) case? Vaccine efficacy for influenza vaccines is only 30-40% at best, but does anyone call them failures? No, they are really helpful to prevent severe disease and death.
 

Temstar

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"The CDC considers someone fully vaccinated with any FDA-authorized or approved vaccines and any vaccines that (the World Health Organization) has authorized," said spokesperson Kristen Nordlund. That list could change pending additions by either agency, she said.
So CDC now recognises Sinovac and Sinopharm for upcoming relaxed travel restriction in November.
 
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FriedRiceNSpice

Senior Member
Thats called shifting the goalposts.

So after months of selling the vaccines as "preventing infection" , all of a sudden it no longer matters that they can't do that?

Total failure on all fronts.

Who claimed that vaccines will "prevent infection?"

Since the earliest days of the vaccine drive in the US, the official information from the CDC has been that vaccines cannot completely prevent infection, but will drastically reduce the risks of severe illness and death.

Anyone with a basic understanding of how vaccines work would understand that it would be impossible for a vaccine to prevent infection. Vaccines work by "training," the body's immune system to recognize a specific antigen, so that antibodies can be produced in response to neutralize the antigen. In order for that response to occur, the antigen would need to be already present in the body, at which point infection would already have occurred.

A vaccine would only be able to prevent infection only for a temporary period of time following immunization, during which the initial antibodies that were produced in response to the vaccine are still present in the body.
 

Phead128

Senior Member
Nobodys getting fired or demanding children be injected with experimental flu vaccines genius, thats the difference here.

This is misinformation. You can voluntarily refuse the vaccine. Under Joe Biden's executive order, you can choose to get tested once a week instead of getting the vaccine. You won't be fired if you get tested weekly, which is very reasonable. There is not mandate.
Nobodys getting fired or demanding children be injected with experimental flu vaccines genius, thats the difference here.
This is misinformation and fearmongering. Who the fuck is demanding children to be vaccinated when FDA has not approved vaccines for children <12 years old yet?
Nobodys getting fired or demanding children be injected with experimental flu vaccines genius, thats the difference here.
The vaccine has FDA Full Approval, it is NOT "experimental and investigational" anymore.

Through clinical trials, we discover:
  1. Drug safety in patients
  2. Drug efficacy against disease
  3. Dose-Response relationship
  4. Adverse events and risks
This vaccine is no longer experimental. Stop making up bullshit. You can reasonably argue that there is lack of long-term safety clinical trial data or the Phase III trial was accelerated due to the Public Health emergency, but you cannot say that is "experimental" it has full FDA approval, so it's not experimental. It also has high quality rigorous short-term RCT data on safety/efficacy.
There is NO JUSTIFICATION for vaccine mandates if they cannot prevent infection, especially in otherwise healthy adults and children.
First off, there is no vaccine mandate. You can opt out and refuse the vaccine and take weekly COVID tests instead. Stop calling it a "Mandate", nobody is forcing you to take the vaccine.
There is NO JUSTIFICATION for vaccine mandates if they cannot prevent infection, especially in otherwise healthy adults and children.
Why are you so focused on infection, but not risk reduction of severe disease and death?
There is NO JUSTIFICATION for vaccine mandates if they cannot prevent infection, especially in otherwise healthy adults and children.
You are implying that you better off un-vaccinated (with or without COVID), compared to vaccinated (with or without COVID). There is no scientific proof for this. If there is, please feel free to share.
That is where the goalposts have shifted.
Our understanding about the novel virus has shifted since it's a new unknown virus that has never been seen before in humans, so policies will naturally adjust to updated scientific understanding.
People were sold an obvious lie that the experimental vaccines were going to stop the pandemic, a lie which became the basis for one of the grossest violations of civil liberties in recent memory.
Thank god nobody is forcing you take the vaccine, you can go get weekly COVID testings instead. Under Joe Biden's executive order, you are not forced to take the vaccine, you can opt out and get COVID tests once a week. Why is it not surprising that you anti-vaxxers are misunderstanding executive orders and scientific articles? You guys don't read?
Variants will pop up faster than you can make vaccines
As with influenza vaccines, you don't target every variant in existent (over 150 influenza variants), you only need to target the top 4 most prevalent and dominant variants. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how vaccines works. You don't need to target every mutate that exist, only the variants that is most prevalent and dominant and most likely to infect the most number of humans. The goal of vaccines isn't eradication.
, especially vaccines that only target a single antigen lol
Why are you suggesting "lol". Why don't you provide scientific citation that targeting only a single antigen is more likely to generate lethal variants.
, so the disease is already endemic.
The disease is endemic in animal host population, so regardless of human mass vaccination, the virus is already endemic in bats, deers, dogs, cats, civets, pangolins, mice, gorillas, etc...
Why force vaccines on everyone for an endemic disease that grows stronger with every failed mass vaccination campaign? Again, total fail from team vaccine.
...because vaccines reduce hospitalization, severe disease, and most importantly, DEATH, which is completely absent in your analysis. Variants are endemic in animal hosts, so its pointless about fear-mongering about human-generated variants because SAR-CoV-2 virus thrive and mutates in bats, deers, dogs, cats, civets, pangolins, mice, gorillas. It's virtually impossible to stop variants whether in human or animal host population, so it's not even a factor to justify not vaccinating people, assuming that your assertion that variants grow more virulence, which remains unseen.
Again, total fail from team vaccine.
Again, 10X reduction in severe disease, hospitalization, and DEATH is a total success from team vaccine. Your analysis absolutely ignores the protection against Death, and you fearmongering about non-existent variant threat (ignoring the humongous animal host population) and fearmongering about side-effects (ignoring that vaccines have significantly lower side-effects compared to COVID).
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It cannot be understated how much trust has been lost in the public health officials who knowingly and willingly pushed such malicious falsehoods out of idiocy, greed, or simple conformity, especially since the end result was a dramatic expansion of said official's power over society.
It cannot be understated how anti-vaxxers misrepresent information, fail to understand even the most basic presidential proclaimations, fail to read and provide scientific evidence to support their argument, and just stubbornly spread misinformation and malicious falsehoods. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how vaccines work and biology work.
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But what is even more interesting is the fact that new escape variants are emerging, obviously driven by selection pressure
Escape variants are also generated by animal host population, so stop fearmongering about vaccine-caused variants, when it's only a small fraction of the total human+animal host population.
and the inability of these junk vaccines to stamp out the disease.
What is even more interesting is how "junk" vaccines significantly reduce hospitalization and death, while YOUR strategy would exponentially increase hospitalization and death.

Its obvious that the mass vaccination campaign is actually making the disease MORE virulent and possibly MORE deadly by artificially upping the selection pressure.
You are missing the forest for the trees. Again, escape variants are also generated by animal host population, so stop fear mongering about vaccine-caused variants, when it's only a small fraction of the total human+animal host population.

Truly, team vaccine is not only failing to stop the pandemic, but is now making it worse by their own actions.
The pandemic will stop when hospitalization and death drops down to a "socially acceptable" level. The goal isn't to eradicate infections, which you and I agree, is impossible since it's an endemic disease.

Your solution of accepting the virus only works if hospitalization and deaths drop significantly. You can't end the pandemic by having so much death and hospitalization. That makes no sense.

What will team vaccine do when the public, reeling from the vicious lies spread by big pharma, refuses to take the cocktail of booster shots every 6, sorry every 3 months?

They are free to refuse to take booster shots, because there is no vaccine mandate in the United States. Joe Biden said you can refuse to take boosters or vaccines, you go get a weekly COVID test instead. There is no mandate in the US.
 

OppositeDay

Junior Member
Registered Member

supersnoop

Junior Member
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Here it is in writing:
View attachment 77384
Recognizing WHO-approved vaccines means (at this point) just additionally recognizing Sinopharm and Sinovac, lol (Maybe Covishield if not authorized with AZ).
I guess for the US, it means recognizing AZ as well.

Will be interesting if the Canadian federal government changes its own stance. I believe their refusal to give any sort of reduced quarantine to Sinovac and Sinopharm users was politically motivated as the PM said "allied vaccine policy" in a speech. Maybe an US-led attempt to try to sideline the purchase and acceptance of Chinese vaccines?

What's interesting is the provincial governments have been okay with WHO vaccines for their vaccine passport systems (previously posted the Ontario government website)
BC:
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Important: If you received two doses of a WHO approved vaccine that is not approved for use in Canada (such as Sinovac/Coronavac or SinoPharm), you have a complete vaccine series. However, you are eligible to receive an additional dose of an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer or Moderna) in B.C.

Quebec:
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Please show your ID when you arrive at the vaccination centre, as well as a legible proof of vaccination from the country where you were vaccinated. You need these proofs to be registered and vaccinated here. Information on your documents will be verified to ensure that the vaccine you received has been authorized by the World Health Organization and that you are within the dose time frame for this vaccine.
 

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