Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

[Sincho]

When the media/right-wing says no origin host found, they fail to also acknowledge it took 15 years to confirm civet cats caused sars1 , no one knows how ebola jumped into humans, it took decades to figure out AIDS/HIV

As much as possible, I try to be a stickler for factual accuracy. That is why I need to correct your "facts".

No, it does not take 15 years to ascertain that civet cats carried the Sars1 virus. Sars1 spread into the world from China in 2003. Already in 2003, researchers have found out that civet cats carried the virus.

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By Johnathan Flower, Associated Press GENEVA (May 23) - The World Health Organization has traced the SARS virus to the civet cat and two ...

And Ebola virus is found in bats , initially spread to humans through contact with droppings or perhaps partially eaten fruits

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[Phead128]

The scientists will do what the government tells them to. The government in turn will use public opinion to make life difficult for these scientists. Are you familiar with how Western politics works?

"Also this lab virus theory will never be proven, it'll always be "intelligence sources suggest" , "leaked report suggests" etc"

Already large swathes of the public are being convinced it is true. And now more scientists are coming out in favor of the leak hypothesis. Its no longer politically incorrect to speak about the LL after all.

**********************

Since the majority of early LL theory proponents were so called "loons", "fringe", "crazy people", if they are vindicated then the "overton window" will be significantly expanded. So what is considered "acceptable", "off limits", "too crazy to dare" in the US just became more volatile.

US rule of law is "Innocent until proven guilty"

So why does Americans presume guilt and ask China to proven innocence? That's exact opposite of US rule of law "Innocent until proven guilty".

Also, US rule of law is "Burden of proof is upon accuser, not accused."

So why does American put the burden of proof on China when American is the accuser? It's up to America to supply proof supporting accusations, not the victim.

If this was America's own judiciary system, this case would be dismissed based on lack of evidence by the accuser.

Your weasel words like "increasing support by scientists" and "lab theory not dismissed" would be rejected by US court of law and US scientists performing any scientific review.

 

[HybridHypothesis]

US rule of law is "Innocent until proven guilty"

So why does Americans presume guilt and ask China to proven innocence?

Also, US rule of law is "Burden of proof is upon accuser, not accused."

So why does American put the burden of proof on China when American is the accuser?

If this was America's own judiciary system, this case would be dismissed based on lack of evidence by the accusers.

Come on dude, do you think this is how it works in reality, especially in regards to the narrative?

Just look at what the opposition is saying dude. Actually, just read some Carl Schmitt ffs.



China is the enemy of the West, therefore why would they extend the benefit of the doubt to the enemy? Especially in regards to matters as serious as this?

"Innocent until proven guilty" is for citizens IN the West, not for those outside lol.

 

[LawLeadsToPeace]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1399187095764279303

The CIA is really scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to finding "scientists" to promote their conspiracy theories.

For a person who basically wants to bring democracy to China and be treated like a god among Chinese people, I’m impressed that he is willing to expose those scientists.

 

[Phead128]

Come on dude, do you think this is how it works in reality, especially in regards to the narrative?

Just look at what the opposition is saying dude. Actually, just read some Carl Schmitt ffs.

View attachment 72857

China is the enemy of the West, therefore why would they extend the benefit of the doubt to the enemy? Especially in regards to matters as serious as this?

"Innocent until proven guilty" is for citizens IN the West, not for those outside lol.

You are saying that US rule of law applies to US citizens and does not apply to China.... But US wants China to respect a "rules-based international order" so China should be obedient to US rules and regulations....is that right?

US doesn't export it's ideology like rule of law and democracy elsewhere right?

Also, US insisting on "openness and transparency" also implies equality and respect. Or does US only reserve equality and respect for US citizens and not for China? So China gets the worst of both worlds, presume guilt, victim needs to prove innocence, no equality and respect?

If so, fuck US double standards.

 

[HybridHypothesis]

All you do is give typical conspiracy theory "more scientists are coming out in favor" or "so many tools for genetic manipulation these days" or "99% affinity to a specific cell receptor." This is the typical conspiracy theory game where you say X looks weird or Y looks suspicious but give no evidence.

I can do this easy for other diseases.

-----

Regardless of how HIV might have happened, the natural origin theory just doesn't do it for me. We have so many tools for genetic manipulation these days, and we know that the Belgians were injecting millions of Africans with reused dirty needles beforehand. LL can never be discounted because of those 2 reasons.

No other disease in human history emerged as a deadly retrovirus with a 100% affinity to human DNA. HIV integrates itself into the human genome!

And despite all the probable intermediate hosts, they have not found a variant that would produce a clean phylogenetic tree (otherwise Belgium would have already shut this lab leak theory down with the evidence). So the evolutionary link from SIV to the first identified HIV virus has not been found in nature yet. This is concerning to say the least.

Maybe it was planted there by the Belgians. Or maybe it was improperly disposed of waste. A lab breakout is just one possible vector of infection. The virus could have leaked into the Congo wet markets via other methods.

The fundamental flaws of a natural origin explanation are how the virus just emerged so well adapted to human biology and how no credible intermediate host has been identified.

My prediction for the day is that at some point a credible study claiming the virus was engineered will come out, turning the majority of the world's scientific community from interacting w/ Belgium. The fallout will surprise ppl on this forum.

Every person who wants to be dovish on Belgium will be greeted with the following from their peers.

"You want to do research with Belgium, the regime that killed 15 million Africans with their lab virus?"

Majority will say no to that.

Except that no one cares about HIV whereas everyone cares about corona, so this ridiculous "response" of yours fails to capture the gravity of the scenario we are currently dealing with. These 2 diseases aren't even in the same league in terms of impact, media coverage, and usefulness to politicians.

 

[HybridHypothesis]

You are saying that US rule of law applies to US citizens and does not apply to China.... But US wants China to respect a "rules-based international order" so China should be obedient to US rules and regulations....is that right?

US doesn't export it's ideology like rule of law and democracy elsewhere right?

Also, US insisting on "openness and transparency" also implies equality and respect. Or does US only reserve equality and respect for US citizens and not for China? So China gets the worst of both worlds, presume guilt, victim needs to prove innocence, no equality and respect?

If so, fuck US double standards.

"fuck US double standards"

How is this even important lol. China obviously wants to be treated as an equal member of the international community, but that kind of recognition can only be given... by other members of the international community. The lab leak narrative is being used to exclude China from said community. Thats my main point at the end of the day.

 

[Phead128]

"fuck US double standards"

How is this even important lol. China obviously wants to be treated as an equal member of the international community, but that kind of recognition can only be given... by other members of the international community. The lab leak narrative is being used to exclude China from said community. Thats my main point at the end of the day.

It takes two to tango.

You have to have other nations to believe US accusations, it can't only be GQP-drunk right wing Americans. That's not the universe of nations in the global community.

Hence why real evidence matters more than presumed guilt or speculation.

 

[HybridHypothesis]

It takes two to tango.

You have to have other nations to believe US accusations, it can't only be GQP-drunk right wing Americans. That's not the universe of nations in the global community.

Hence why real evidence matters more than presumed guilt or speculation.

If the LL theory is taken seriously by large enough chunks of Western academia then that is enough since they have the majority of the credibility.

 

[supercat]

And despite all the probable intermediate hosts, they have not found a variant that would produce a clean phylogenetic tree (otherwise China would have already shut this lab leak theory down with the evidence). So the evolutionary link from RATG13 to the first identified corona virus has not been found in nature yet. This is concerning to say the least.

Out of the 6 pathogenic coronavirus, only 2 have clear origins. It may take decades to find the intermediate host if we are unlucky.

Even if SARS-CoV-2 jumped from bats or other animals to humans outside of a lab, as Dr. Garry suspects, it will be hard to find airtight proof for that pathway. When animals die, they take their viruses with them.

While scientists have fairly good evidence for how two coronaviruses — the cause of SARS and MERS — jumped from bats to humans, the origins of the other four coronaviruses that infect humans remain a mystery.

“Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don’t,” Dr. Garry said. “It can take decades.”

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