COMAC C919


Gatekeeper

Captain
Registered Member
But never understand Trump, he contradicts his own contradiction.

Lol. I loved that line of yours a man that "contradicts his own contradiction". Its up there with the "unknown unknowns"!

I use that line on my students to illicit discussions, I will have to borrow your line above. Just hope you havn't got a patent on that!

Yep, our POTUS is great. Love him or loath him, he is entertaining, and..... strangely enough, compelling and addictive! Which brings me to the Chinese proverb, "make you live in interesting time!"
 

MwRYum

Captain
But as Trump said, not selling to China mean the orders will go to some other places (he hates Airbus and now perhaps Boris Johnson's Rolls Royce). But never understand Trump, he contradicts his own contradiction.
But Rolls Royce doesn't have a LEAP-X equivalent engine.
 

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
But Rolls Royce doesn't have a LEAP-X equivalent engine.
all it takes is Chinese money plus British technology plus determination from both countries to resist US pressure and blackmail.
joint collaboration to develop RR engines for the C919 is mutually beneficial and should bear fruit in , say, 5-10 years ?
Time for China to turn to the UK and Europe for future co-operation in all aerospace projects. Make everything with 0 % American components.
this is great opportunity for the UK as well. Time for UK to stand up and be a man, and shake off America's shackles and fetters.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Blocking the sale of Leap 1C engine would mean the bankruptcy of GE. Right now GE is suffering because of Boeing 737 debacle. But it is still wise to speed up the development of CJ-1000

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New York (CNN Business)General Electric appears to have a dodged a bullet in President Donald Trump's fight with China over the theft of American trade secrets.

The Trump administration is poised to give a GE (
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) joint venture the green light to continue exporting jet engines to China -- despite national security concerns raised by some US officials.
That comes as a major relief to GE after
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the Trump administration could block the export of LEAP 1C jet engines to China because of fears that the products could be reverse-engineered.
Blocking the sales would have been a major blow to GE because jet engines are central to the company's efforts to
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.

GE Aviation, easily the company's biggest and most profitable division, is currently bleeding cash because of the grounding of Boeing's (
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)
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. The plane uses engines made by CFM, the joint venture between GE and France's Safran.
GE had been waiting for the Commerce Department to issue GE a license required to continue exporting engines to China that were designed for a new Chinese commercial airliner currently in flight testing.

Trump, in a
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sent Tuesday, instructed his administration to avoid putting up roadblocks that would hurt American multinational companies, including for the "always used National Security excuse."
"We don't want to make it impossible to do business with us. That will only mean that orders will go to someplace else," Trump wrote. "As an example, I want China to buy our jet engines, the best in the World."

Trump's tweets did not mention GE specifically and the Commerce Department declined to comment. However, a person familiar with the matter told CNN Business that the Commerce Department "fully intends to comply with the president's wishes on jet engines."

The Twitter outburst followed a Tuesday phone call about the jet engines between Trump, Commerce Secretary Ross and Defense Secretary Mark Esper, the person familiar with the matter said.

GE is burning through gobs of cash
The license in question allows GE to export its Leap-1C engine to China for use in the C919, a narrow-body aircraft in development. GE has received approval from the Commerce Department since 2014 for this program. The most recent license was granted nearly a year ago.
In a statement, GE emphasized its long-standing dedication to protecting American trade secrets.

"GE has provided products and services in the global marketplace for decades," the company said. "We aggressively protect and defend our intellectual property and work closely with the US government to fulfill our responsibilities and shared security and economic interests."
Meanwhile, GE provided further evidence Tuesday of why it is working hard to boost engine sales to China and other markets.

GE chairman and CEO Larry Culp, who has been credited with saving GE from ruin, told analysts at a Barclays conference that the company will burn through about $2 billion in cash during the first quarter. That is "largely due" to the Boeing 737 Max crisis, he said.
"We're going to see some pressures here in the first half, particularly here in the first quarter," Culp told analysts.
Yet GE maintained its forecast for 2020 free cash flow of $2 billion to $4 billion, implying a strong rebound during the second half of the year.

The company is also signaling it won't rely solely on Boeing to navigate its crisis. GE is in talks with Boeing rival Airbus to design and sell an engine for the European aerospace giant's latest wide-body plane, the A330neo, The Wall Street Journal
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.
GE did not deny the report.
"We continuously work to identify opportunities to add value for our customers," the company said in a statement, "and to assess introduction of new technologies into our existing engines."
 

MwRYum

Captain
all it takes is Chinese money plus British technology plus determination from both countries to resist US pressure and blackmail.
joint collaboration to develop RR engines for the C919 is mutually beneficial and should bear fruit in , say, 5-10 years ?
Time for China to turn to the UK and Europe for future co-operation in all aerospace projects. Make everything with 0 % American components.
this is great opportunity for the UK as well. Time for UK to stand up and be a man, and shake off America's shackles and fetters.
Something as complicated as jet engine won't have a viable commercial model available overnight, a decade just to develop the engine and a few more years to modify (practically re-design) the plane model (everything from aerodynamics pertain to new nacelles, to flight control optimization to work with new engine's performance characteristics) plus another few years to flight test and then certification....you're looking at a 20 years R&D life cycle even if all goes to plan.

Instead of waiting for a (probable) Rolls Royce Trent derivative, pushing the CJ-1000A to full fruition and integration might actually 5 years faster in comparison...barring possible radical advancement in transportation technology in the coming decades or so, narrow-body commuter planes such as A320NEO / B737MAX / C919 will still be the industry's workhorse, the smart thing to do is still to get C919 introduced into commercial service in 1st quarter of 2020s, build up the operational records in the ensuing decade or so, introduce next generation of C919 with more engine selection, such as CJ-1000A series...or a Rolls Royce model, if them Brits are game, that is.
 

Jono

Junior Member
Registered Member
Something as complicated as jet engine won't have a viable commercial model available overnight, a decade just to develop the engine and a few more years to modify (practically re-design) the plane model (everything from aerodynamics pertain to new nacelles, to flight control optimization to work with new engine's performance characteristics) plus another few years to flight test and then certification....you're looking at a 20 years R&D life cycle even if all goes to plan.

Instead of waiting for a (probable) Rolls Royce Trent derivative, pushing the CJ-1000A to full fruition and integration might actually 5 years faster in comparison...barring possible radical advancement in transportation technology in the coming decades or so, narrow-body commuter planes such as A320NEO / B737MAX / C919 will still be the industry's workhorse, the smart thing to do is still to get C919 introduced into commercial service in 1st quarter of 2020s, build up the operational records in the ensuing decade or so, introduce next generation of C919 with more engine selection, such as CJ-1000A series...or a Rolls Royce model, if them Brits are game, that is.
thanks.
understood your point.
the problem with the CJ-1000A is that it is a new engine, and Chinese! Even though the new engine may be perfectly designed and manufactured to the highest standards, Commercial acceptance may not be that forthcoming, at least outside of China. To make matters worse, I am afraid even local Chinese citizens may have some initial fear riding on a plane powered by this new engine.
And America has proven itself unworthy of trust and co-operation. So the short cut would be to co-operate with RR as a win win solution.
But now that Trump has indicated he would not block the sale of the Leap engines to China, the above discussion is moot.
 

MwRYum

Captain
the problem with the CJ-1000A is that it is a new engine, and Chinese! Even though the new engine may be perfectly designed and manufactured to the highest standards, Commercial acceptance may not be that forthcoming, at least outside of China. To make matters worse, I am afraid even local Chinese citizens may have some initial fear riding on a plane powered by this new engine.
And America has proven itself unworthy of trust and co-operation. So the short cut would be to co-operate with RR as a win win solution.
But now that Trump has indicated he would not block the sale of the Leap engines to China, the above discussion is moot.
As it is now, since over 2/3 of the C919 orders are made by Chinese SOEs (airlines, banks and aircraft leasing companies which are mostly bank subsidiaries), C919 will be serving domestic routes and routes to its immediate neighbours (that's international routes for your), since such narrow-body types usually fly those within 4-hrs flight routes. That being said, those C919 won't go too far from where the service and support network will be concentrated. 10 years of daily operations should be enough to establish the reliability statistics of C919. CJ-1000A will face the similar fair.

Chinese would be very cautious with Britain now, since Brexit got them burned.

And Trump? He can change his mind either after he woke up or between chomping down 2 cheeseburgers. take your pick. And don't forget it's bipartisan consensus when comes to Cold War 2.0 and trade war against China, so Beijing is still getting the same dish of crap regardless it's Trump / Sanders / Warran / Bloomberg / Pence / Buttigieg sitting in White House in 2021-24. The only difference is that in Trump, the US has a mediocre as their Commander-in-Chief. And that gives China a rare advantage - they may have idiots at mayor level, but idiot just won't make it to ZhongNanHai, period.
 

MwRYum

Captain
As one the world's top 2 commercial aircraft market for the next 20 or more years, every extra C919 sold in China will be a loss to most likely Boeing and US aircraft component manufacturers rather than Airbus.
If I recall correctly, the C919 has more than 10% of US-made components, such as flight controls (Honeywell), cabin systems (Rockwell Collins), and of course, engine and nacelles (CFM, which 50% owned by GE).

As you can see, US-made components are mostly mission-critical types, so it'd not be loss to US aircraft component manufacturers; for Boeing, they've to sort out their own house.
 

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