COMAC C919

Hadoren said:

Look, the patent doesn't give away the secret. It just gives general outlines. You can't figure out how to build the engine from just the patent; otherwise China would have done it long ago.

Click to expand...

Comac insists of having the American company built the subcomponent domestically by partnering with local company So yeah they got all the blue print, manual, design calculation and all the work already. Whatever secret component they still have hacking crew will likely got it by now
Right now China still honoring the patent agreement and pay the license fee But if syhywt hit the fan Yeah forget about patent


Building China's Comac C919 airplane involved a lot of hacking, report says
One of China's most brazen hacking sprees involved intelligence officers, hackers, security researchers, and company insiders.


By for | October 14, 2019 -- 15:00 GMT (08:00 PDT) | Topic:

• 
  The aim of this hacking operation was to acquire intellectual property to narrow China's technological gap in the aviation industry, and especially to help Comac, a Chinese state-owned aerospace manufacturer, build its own airliner,
  Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
  , to compete with industry rivals like Airbus and Boeing.
  
  A Crowdstrike report published today shows how this coordinated multi-year hacking campaign systematically went after the foreign companies that supplied components for the C919 airplane.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Image credit: Aerotime
  The end goal, Crowdstrike claims, was to acquire the needed intellectual property to manufacture all of the C919's components inside China.
  
  Crowdstrike claims that the Ministry of State Security (MSS) tasked the Jiangsu Bureau (MSS JSSD) to carry out these attacks.
  
  The Jiangsu Bureau, in turn, tasked two lead officers to coordinate these efforts. One was in charge of the actual hacking team, while the second was tasked with recruiting insiders working at aviation and aerospace companies.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Image: Crowdstrike
  The hacking team targeted companies between 2010 and 2015, and successfully breached C919 suppliers like Ametek, Honeywell, Safran, Capstone Turbine, GE, and others.
  
  But unlike in other Chinese hacks, where China used cyber-operatives from military units, for these hacks, the MSS took another approach, recruiting local hackers and security researchers.

manqiangrexue said:

How difficult would it be to switch to Rolls Royce or Trent (while developing the in-house engine of course)? I don't think this partnership with the US should continue anyway.

Click to expand...

Most modern Boeing and Airbus are designed to be adaptable between the big makers of engines. It would require some changes though. Yet if COMAC wanted absolute security from outside international sanctions on components then they would need a third or fourth option Russian or Chinese.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

So disregard the patent on the sub components? Which is exactly a major complaint of doing business in China. When things don’t go your way undercut and cheat.

Click to expand...

Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black! When things were going America's way, it talks about free trade and globalism like boy-scout but when they don't, the US pulls every dirty trick in and out of the book including disregarding patents and even abduction. With the behavior of the current GOP in the Huawei case and more, this would certainly justify China taking whatever steps it deems fit in retaliation regardless of the complaints. As a matter of fact, as the current American government conducts itself internationally, there's really no honor left that needs to be upheld by anyone when dealing with America.

I had quoted @Hendrik_2000 who had proposed breaking IP to save the program. An act of desperation.
You say “when things were going the US’s way” yet China’s not exactly having sun shine and fluffy bunnies right now. The Epidemic has resulted in a lot of factories and Chinese based suppliers to but the breaks on deliveries with projected restarts in last I heard May. That’s not selling keeping the supply chains in China very well. The longer you have such things going the more you have industry looking to re-Shore.
The more Chinese factories are closed the harder this hits and more those firms start looking to Alternatives. Even bringing it home.

China needs the C919 more than the US side of things. Yeah everyone is picking on Boeing today yet they still make sales. Those backlogged 737s will still be sold.

jobjed said:

If the US refuses LEAP export, China will have to use older CFM56s or the Russian PD-14 which hasn't gained market confidence.

Click to expand...

Good thing China's airlines are state-owned. The PD-14 can have all the market confidence in the world with the stroke of a pen.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

I had quoted @Hendrik_2000 who had proposed breaking IP to save the program. An act of desperation.

Click to expand...

You are having such an r/selfawarewolves moment right now. All America has done since since it launched the trade war have been failed acts of desperation. I wish I could say that patent invalidation was a uniquely Chinese act, but it's something America regularly did when it was developing - along with, you know, slavery. Is there any evil left for anyone to commit that America hasn't already pioneered?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

The more Chinese factories are closed the harder this hits and more those firms start looking to Alternatives. Even bringing it home.

Click to expand...

There are no alternatives.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

I had quoted @Hendrik_2000 who had proposed breaking IP to save the program. An act of desperation.
You say “when things were going the US’s way” yet China’s not exactly having sun shine and fluffy bunnies right now. The Epidemic has resulted in a lot of factories and Chinese based suppliers to but the breaks on deliveries with projected restarts in last I heard May. That’s not selling keeping the supply chains in China very well. The longer you have such things going the more you have industry looking to re-Shore.
The more Chinese factories are closed the harder this hits and more those firms start looking to Alternatives. Even bringing it home.

China needs the C919 more than the US side of things. Yeah everyone is picking on Boeing today yet they still make sales. Those backlogged 737s will still be sold.

Click to expand...

OK things aren't going China's way in the sense that there is a viral outbreak. That is not what I'm talking about and has nothing to do with IP. Things aren't going America's way in the sense that Huawei (most prominently though not singularly) is overturning American technological dominance in telecoms so America is willing to turn the world upside down with underhanded tactics to try to stop it, and that includes attempting to nullify its IP. Given that, AND if Honeywell breaks the contract to supply engines, I see no reason why China shouldn't nullify Honeywell's IP. Everything America has done with Huawei are acts of extreme desperation, and they pave the way for just retaliation as Hendricks mentioned.

As for "looking elsewhere," they might have to look in space because China's quality to price ratio is unbeatable in this world and is a resource for companies to be globally competitive. As for "bringing it home," hahaha, yeah, maybe if home is Thailand or Indonesia, not if home is the US.

Hadoren said:

Honestly to me this is not a big deal.

I don't really have much faith in SOE's, and for me COMAC is a typical example of a failed SOE that sucked money out of the state and never built anything.

The plane is already five years late, delayed for at least another year, and has tons of problems reportedly. Nobody would have bought it anyways.

There are innovative top-quality Chinese companies that need to be defended with whatever weapons possible, such as Huawei. Then there are SOE albatrosses that suck up state money and resources and never produce anything. COMAC is the latter.

Oh well, maybe this will help GE go bankrupt.

Here's an overall summary of the effect of this in my view:

Previously - China unable to enter the civilian aviation business.
Now - China unable to enter the civilian aviation business.

Click to expand...

Could you list the performance aspects of the C919 that make it so terrible compared to 737 and A320? Real question I don't know the answer to. But, the civilian airliner industry is just about the most difficult there is to enter; it would be unrealistic to require that COMAC or any manufacturer's first jet is perfectly as good as those of the established duopoly. But everything has to start somewhere; indeed, C919 has over 1,000 orders, mostly from China. Luckily, because China's market is the largest in the world, even if it flies nowhere except through domestic skies, it's still a great foundation for COMAC to build upon and maybe in a couple of generations or iterations, it will truly have a world-beating passenger plane. As long as the safety is good enough to undertake this plan (can't have jets falling out of the skies multiple times a year like the 737, thought the 737 is eating the vast stores of credit it had built up over the decades that COMAC doesn't have), the future will be bright for China's airliner industry. But terminating projects like this just because they cannot immediately meet/beat Boeing/Airbus in one step is a huge mistake (commonly made around the world) that will lead to China being forever out of the civilian airliner market.

Here is one example of joint venture between Liebherr and their Chinese partner. I bet there are other subsytem that will built in China too Never forget that China has experience in building avionic for large aircraft eg Y-20. so avionic or flight control never was a problem. the purpose of JV is to train, developed the engineering and manufacturing skill of Chinese engineer . By now there should be thousand of those engineer. China learn bitter lesson from Soviet and China cooperation in 1950's When Soviet abruptly cancelled and tear apart the joint venture. Eventually China manage to complete the project on their own like Tu 16 that become H-6
INDUSTRY

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

© Liebherr

24/09/2018 11:40 |

Liebherr LAMC delivers first C919 landing gear built in China
The German-Chinese joint venture, based in Changsha, has delivered the first C919 landing gear system assembled in China.

Liebherr LAMC Aviation (Changsha) Co., Ltd. — the joint venture between the Chinese company LAMC (AVIC Landing Gear Advanced Manufacturing Corp.) and German-based Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg GmbH — has delivered the first C919 landing gear system assembled in China.

The Chinese assembly line for the C919 landing gear was built jointly by the two partners, based on the assembly facilities and testing equipment of Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg GmbH, Lindenberg (Germany), Liebherr’s center of competence for landing gear and flight control systems.

The JV will assemble the next C919 nose and main landing gears in Changsha.

Liebherr LAMC Aviation (Changsha) Co., Ltd. was established in 2012 to develop and manufacture landing gear systems for the Chinese aviation industry as well as the international aviation market. The JV is also responsible for the assembly and delivery of the landing gear system of COMAC’s ARJ21 programme and will work for other programmes in the years to come.

Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg was selected to develop, manufacture, qualify, certify and service the landing gear system of the C919, while its sister company, Liebherr-Aerospace Toulouse SAS, provides the C919's integrated air management system.

The company is hopeful of contributing to the development of the Chinese/Russian widebody programme.

Liebherr LAMC Aviation (Changsha) delivers 100th ARJ 21 landing gear strut


©Liebherr LAMC Aviation (Changsha) landing gear work

Liebherr LAMC Aviation (Changsha), the joint venture between the Chinese company LAMC (AVIC Landing Gear Advanced Manufacturing) and German-based Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg, has delivered the 100th landing gear strut from Changsha for COMAC’s twin-engine ARJ21 regional jet program.

Since the first delivery ceremony for the ARJ21’s landing gear struts took place in 2016, a lot has happened at Liebherr LAMC Aviation (Changsha). The successful joint venture is not only celebrating the milestone of the 100th landing gear strut delivered to COMAC, but it is also on course to ramp up production to 90 landing gears struts per year by 2020.

In addition to the ARJ21 program, LLA is also home to the assembly line for COMAC’s narrow-body twinjet C919 landing gear struts. The ceremony for the first delivery of the C919 landing gear strut for flight test aircraft 104 from this facility occurred in 2018. The company is set to ramp up production to 145 landing gear struts per year by 2025, and its first delivery of two ship-sets (or six struts) for series production is scheduled for the second quarter of 2020. COMAC plans to deliver the first C919 to its customer in 2021.

GE and China's AVIC to form avionics joint venture


A model of the 150-seat C919 passenger plane is displayed at the Asian Aerospace Expo in Hong Kong September 8, 2009. REUTERS/Bobby Yip

BEIJING (Reuters) - General Electric Co () and Aviation Industry Corp, a Chinese state-owned aircraft maker, agreed on Sunday to form an avionics joint venture that will have China’s booming commercial aircraft market as one of its main targets.

The initial focus of the venture would be to develop equipment for China’s planned C919 passenger jet, which will have at least 150 seats, said executives of GE, the world’s biggest maker of jet engines.

Government-backed Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) has said it expects the C919 to have its first test flight in 2014 with deliveries to customers starting in 2016.


“Our first priority will be to compete for the COMAC C919,” Lorraine Bolsinger, president and chief executive of GE’s Aviation Systems business, told reporters.

The partners said they aimed to set up the 50-50 venture by mid-2010, subject to regulatory approval.

Part of the JV, which will have its headquarters in China, will involve the creation of a technology center in Shanghai, where GE already carries out research and development.

Beijing merged its two state aircraft makers, AVIC I and AVIC II, in 2008 to pool resources for the jet project as it moves to wean itself from reliance on Boeing Co () and Airbus EAD.PA.

“The Chinese civil aviation industry will likely, over the coming decades, be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, in the world,” Jeff Immelt, GE’s chief executive officer, said at a signing ceremony in Beijing.

As well as targeting the domestic market, the GE-AVIC venture said it would aim to sell into the global market, including the United States, where it will create 200 jobs.


COMAC and Honeywell have been working together on the C919 program since COMAC was founded in 2008. Honeywell had worked with COMAC’s predecessor on the ARJ21 regional jet since the early 2000s, before that aircraft was taken over by COMAC when it was established. Honeywell has grown a local China team of more than 500 engineers, many of whom support the C919 program, in addition to hundreds of employees working from 20 sites across Asia, North America and Europe. Through the establishment of two joint ventures, Honeywell Boyun Aviation Systems (Hunan) Co. Ltd. and HonFei Flight Controls Technology Co. Ltd., Honeywell supplies carbon brakes and fly-by-wire flight control electronics, respectively.