Chinese semiconductor industry

Interesting to know how the Russian military chips is produced? what equipent?

22nm chips is not bad .. just not too long ago nVidia used 28nm chips for high end graphic card

14nm next year is even better

Have you got any links that Chinese military chip production is with 45nm SMEE Litho ?

ansy1968 said:

Hi OppositeDay,

China had the capability to produce up to 22nm (chips used in Beidou satellite), with 45nm SMEE LITHO( the current military chip usage) , 14nm next year with SMEE 28NM LITHO DUVL and 7nm in 2022 it's a continuing process. So for Chinese military and state security they are prepared cause they were under sanction for over a decade now and they were force to look for a local alternative for self sufficiency. Now the same story will be replicated in the civilian sector with the current and future sanction impose by the US, only a threat to your survival will force you to look for a domestic solution, a hard lesson learned.

Click to expand...

The best product listed at smee website is 90nm , not many people use it. None of major fabs use it.

Whatever you mentioned is at best a future plan

Beidou 28nm is made by SMIC I believed. And yes, it uses alot of US equipments

The major Chinese CPU loongson used alot by Chinese military 28nm made by samsung foundry and 45nm by SMIC.

The Chinese military unprepared just like commercial companies like Huawei and ZTE.

The only major military chip made in China is their aesa radar chip by sanan.

That's the truth. Try not to sugarcoat it.

Having the ability to manufacture the complete supply chain is only important if you are being choked off by external factors. The whole purpose of global supply chain is that different countries can hone their skills in different fields and there is a net gain of productivity that results from collaboration. Imagine if you had to hunt a deer every time you are hungry and you have to carve it up and cook it yourself. It is true that you are self sufficient, but you lose the time to pursue other tasks like reading a book or fixing a motorcycle.

Chinese leadership was blind sighted by how the degree Trump went to decouple Chinese and American economies. Could they have achieved self-sufficiency in semiconductor a lot earlier if they poured money in? Very likely. But they might not have money for the J-20, three carriers, the poverty alleviation efforts, or the massive infrastructure building and high speed rail.

No sane business leader will waste money to re-invent the wheel unless he/she is forced. Why risk billions of money for low or no return when you can spend the money to develop new shiny things?

Plus no one will use the new domestic equipments (full of issues for sure) because better/more established foreign equipments are available. Why spend the extra money to get new domestic equipments working when foreign ones just works. Chinese government can direct her SOE to develop the semiconductor manufacturing equipments but no private businesses will buy them. Those who’s insane enough to use them will be at a disadvantage vs the ones use foreign equipments.

Hi antiterror13,

22nm chips is not bad .. just not too long ago nVidia used 28nm chips fro high end graphic card

I had an article and posted in the News on Chinese tech development thread about the usage of 22nm chips in Beidou satellite. see if I can retrieved for your perusal.

Have yougot any links that Chinese military chip production is with 45nm SMEE Litho ?

Sorry I don't , I just assume Since SMEE are able to developed and produce 65nm and 45nm litho, the Chinese military will definitely use the machine since it is partly funded by them. I think WTAN can give us some info regarding your question.

siegecrossbow said:

Having the ability to manufacture the complete supply chain is only important if you are being choked off by external factors. The whole purpose of global supply chain is that different countries can hone their skills in different fields and there is a net gain of productivity that results from collaboration. Imagine if you had to hunt a deer every time you are hungry and you have to carve it up and cook it yourself. It is true that you are self sufficient, but you lose the time to pursue other tasks like reading a book or fixing a motorcycle.

Chinese leadership was blind sighted by how the degree Trump went to decouple Chinese and American economies. Could they have achieved self-sufficiency in semiconductor a lot earlier if they poured money in? Very likely. But they might not have money for the J-20, three carriers, the poverty alleviation efforts, or the massive infrastructure building and high speed rail.

Click to expand...

siegecrossbow said:

Having the ability to manufacture the complete supply chain is only important if you are being choked off by external factors. The whole purpose of global supply chain is that different countries can hone their skills in different fields and there is a net gain of productivity that results from collaboration. Imagine if you had to hunt a deer every time you are hungry and you have to carve it up and cook it yourself. It is true that you are self sufficient, but you lose the time to pursue other tasks like reading a book or fixing a motorcycle.

Chinese leadership was blind sighted by how the degree Trump went to decouple Chinese and American economies. Could they have achieved self-sufficiency in semiconductor a lot earlier if they poured money in? Very likely. But they might not have money for the J-20, three carriers, the poverty alleviation efforts, or the massive infrastructure building and high speed rail.

Click to expand...

It's well documented in history how US like cut off natural resources, and technology from it's primary adversary.

It done it with japan and Soviet.
Once China being designated as the primary adversary in white paper, anything goes

ansy1968 said:

Hi OppositeDay,

China had the capability to produce up to 22nm (chips used in Beidou satellite), with 45nm SMEE LITHO( the current military chip usage) , 14nm next year with SMEE 28NM LITHO DUVL and 7nm in 2022 it's a continuing process. So for Chinese military and state security they are prepared cause they were under sanction for over a decade now and they were force to look for a local alternative for self sufficiency. Now the same story will be replicated in the civilian sector with the current and future sanction impose by the US, only a threat to your survival will force you to look for a domestic solution, a hard lesson learned.

Click to expand...

A reverse sanction on the enemy will be enforced soon.

vincent said:

No sane business leader will waste money to re-invent the wheel unless he/she is forced. Why risk billions of money for low or no return when you can spend the money to develop new shiny things?

Plus no one will use the new domestic equipments (full of issues for sure) because better/more established foreign equipments are available. Why spend the extra money to get new domestic equipments working when foreign ones just works. Chinese government can direct her SOE to develop the semiconductor manufacturing equipments but no private businesses will buy them. Those who’s insane enough to use them will be at a disadvantage vs the ones use foreign equipments.

Click to expand...

Still have alot of areas and market for domestic tools can be used. 3 main areas
Like military fabs, university or research institute fabs and also less advanced commercial fabs.
No , China had not proactively hedge into those 3 areas.

repost from WTAN on News on China's scientific and technological development thread

Unfortunately this article sounds like a Load of Bull, especially the part where it will take SMIC 3 yrs to produce 28nm Chips on a localised production line.
(A Japanese owned newspaper quoting a Taiwanese "Expert" is the biggest Joke)

As far as i know SMIC is already building a 28nm Localised production line in Beijing. China's Semiconductor Equipment manufacturers have already developed 28nm Equipment. They are currently working on 14nm Equipment and will start soon on 7nm equipment. Huawei will build their own 28nm FAB early next year.

I made a mistake recently with describing the new SMEE Equipment. SMEE is currently mass producing 2 types of new equipment.
First is a 65nm node Dry Lithograph.
Second is a 45nm node Immersion Lithograph. The 45nm Immersion Litho can produce 14nm, 22nm and 28nm Chips with Multi Patterning.
So SMEE can actually provide a Lithograph now, to local FABs with the ability to make 14nm Chips. The only thing holding the FABs back is the Localised 14nm Equipment which is still under development.

SMIC has been producing 28nm Chips for at least 5yrs years before moving on to 14nm. They have a lot of experience. SMIC can also use reconditioned Manufacturing equipment for 28nm if it is really necessary, where parts are provided locally.
So the whole idea that it will take 3 years to make 28nm Chips sounds extremely unlikely and false.

Also circumstances have changed, with the Government giving more funding and support for Chip making, you can expect many things to happen much quicker.

@antiterror13
AFAIK the major Russian chip producer is Mikron. They have a fabrication facility which produces chips at 65nm on 200mm wafers.
They started this production facility with the help of AMD (before AMD sold their fabs to GlobalFoundries).

One of Mikron's most well known products is smart card chips for the Russian Mir debit/credit card system. This does not require leading edge technology but still it is an important product which makes Russian banks independent from VISA/Mastercard. This is enough for military applications. For example IIRC the Su-35 uses the Baget computer which is based on a 90nm SPARC CPU with vector extensions.
The Elbrus2K architecture is native and was designed for workstations and servers but I am unsure how much actual use it has.
There are 90nm Elbrus2K processors manufactured by Mikron and more advanced processors manufactured at TSMC in Taiwan.
The most recent Elbrus2K processor AFAIK uses 28nm manufacturing process. Their upcoming 16 core processor will have 1.5 Teraflops performance at 2GHz.

So as you can see for military or government chips you do not need the latest technology. What we are talking about here is consumer chips. For example the latest Apple CPU which they use in smartphones, tablets, and now some computers, is the Apple A14 processor.

It is manufactured at TSMC with a 5nm process and was launched like last month.