Chinese semiconductor industry

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gelgoog

Brigadier
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I’m well aware (have to deal with photon spread tolerances sometimes at work). But also, ArF is a mature technology. It’s not hard to do right if you put in the effort. There’s no mystery to the science and engineering.

Yet the amount of companies that manufacture this kind of equipment is quite small worldwide.
Also, even if you do have an ArF laser, if it was low power it means you need a lot more exposure time for the laser to do its job.
i.e. you get way worse productivity.

You would think with how expensive these lithography machines are (DUV machines can cost 40-50 millions, EUV machines can cost 100 millions USD) that they would have more competition if it is that easy to make one.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Yet the amount of companies that manufacture this kind of equipment is quite small worldwide.
Also, even if you do have an ArF laser, if it was low power it means you need a lot more exposure time for the laser to do its job.
i.e. you get way worse productivity.

You would think with how expensive these lithography machines are (DUV machines can cost 40-50 millions, EUV machines can cost 100 millions USD) that they would have more competition if it is that easy to make one.
Still very much a niche market. Look at how much Huawei makes.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Yet the amount of companies that manufacture this kind of equipment is quite small worldwide.
Also, even if you do have an ArF laser, if it was low power it means you need a lot more exposure time for the laser to do its job.
i.e. you get way worse productivity.

You would think with how expensive these lithography machines are (DUV machines can cost 40-50 millions, EUV machines can cost 100 millions USD) that they would have more competition if it is that easy to make one.
That’s not a reflection of a lack of of engineering ability. It’s just that this stuff has high capital costs so the number of players the market can support shrinks pretty rapidly. Costs are not always proxy for difficulty, just resource intensity and complexity. There’s no point devoting your engineering efforts to chase a business opportunity that’s expensive to do when the market already has mature solutions providers. Better to devote that talent to opportunities that have a higher reward to effort ratio. Much more effective, sustainable, and productive use of investment money.

Too often people conflate absence within an industry with a lack of ability when it’s really more a reflection of lack of business opportunity, which is partially why people get so surprised when countries or firms that used to have no business being a lead in a high tech sector suddenly manage to catch the lead.
 
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OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
Military side is by no means safe. Its beidou chip is based 28nm and using US equipments for production currently. It didn't proactively go the deamerican tech route. I can understand the regular industry didn't do it before the current tech war but the military side also didn't so it is mind boggling

Chinese thought its own chip design is sufficient to be qualified as self independent. Never in million year they anticipate US goes to extreme to enforce foreign companies using US equipments

I'm too surprised China hasn't been more prepared. Autonomous drones clearly hold one key to future warfare. Surely PLA wasn't planning on using TSMC-made chips as 'brains' of its autonomous killing machines?
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm too surprised China hasn't been more prepared. Autonomous drones clearly hold one key to future warfare. Surely PLA wasn't planning on using TSMC-made chips as 'brains' of its autonomous killing machines?
Hi OppositeDay,

China had the capability to produce up to 22nm (chips used in Beidou satellite), with 45nm SMEE LITHO( the current military chip usage) , 14nm next year with SMEE 28NM LITHO DUVL and 7nm in 2022 it's a continuing process. So for Chinese military and state security they are prepared cause they were under sanction for over a decade now and they were force to look for a local alternative for self sufficiency. Now the same story will be replicated in the civilian sector with the current and future sanction impose by the US, only a threat to your survival will force you to look for a domestic solution, a hard lesson learned.
 
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