D
Deleted member 15949
Guest
Your eivdence isn't really showing anything other than that SMIC bought products from non-US sources and multi-patterned the fuck out of LDW products. There is no "industrial espionage" here
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Check my post again then. I put a link and quotation explicitly mentioning the successful industrial espionage/theft of TSMC proprietary technology for the 180nm node.Your eivdence isn't really showing anything other than that SMIC bought products from non-US sources and multi-patterned the fuck out of LDW products. There is no "industrial espionage" here
EDIT:
Because SMIC was able to easily dodge the export restrictions of the time, and get within just 2-3 years behind the US state-of-the-art, the US took additional measures to ensure that doesn't happen so easily in the future. I would dare say those measures were largely successful, since SMIC is now further behind than it was 20 years ago and continuing to fall behind further still.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 15949
Guest
The case ended in a consent decree and thus the verifiability of the facts is unknown.Check my post again then. I put a link and quotation explicitly mentioning the successful industrial espionage/theft of TSMC proprietary technology for the 180nm node.
Because SMIC was able to easily dodge the export restrictions of the time, and get within just 2-3 years behind the US state-of-the-art, the US took additional measures to ensure that doesn't happen so easily in the future. I would dare say those measures were largely successful, since SMIC is now further behind than it was 20 years ago and continuing to fall behind further still.
SMIC is still ~2-3 years away from the global frontier given than the TSMC 7nm EUV was deployed in 2019. US policy was always (and consistently) implemented at ~2 generations behind. That's held constant and SMIC is still 2 generations behind, mainly due to the EUV bottleneck.
Can you show me a product on sale that was manufactured on SMIC 7nm?The case ended in a consent decree and thus the verifiability of the facts is unknown.
SMIC is still ~2-3 years away from the global frontier given than the TSMC 7nm EUV was deployed in 2019. US policy was always (and consistently) implemented at ~2 generations behind. That's held constant and SMIC is still 2 generations behind, mainly due to the EUV bottleneck.
When I last checked a couple of months ago, SMIC's 14nm accounted for less than 10% of their sales. I have the impression that this company is slightly over-hyped on this forum.
EDIT:
The first 14nm product was shipped by Intel back in 2014. AFAIK, SMIC shipped its first 14nm product in 2020. Therefore, the gap of 2-3 years was at least doubled since the early 2000s.
Can you show me a product on sale that was manufactured on SMIC 7nm?
When I last checked a couple of months ago, SMIC's 14nm accounted for less than 10% of their sales. I have the impression that this company is slightly over-hyped on this forum.
EDIT:
The first 14nm product was shipped by Intel back in 2014. SMIC shipped its first 14nm product in 2020.
And how does that equate to SMIC is further behind than SMIC was 20 years ago like you claimed?
SMIC shipped 14nm in 2020 while the first 14nm was shipped in 2014. That's 6 years.
Can you show me a product on sale that was manufactured on SMIC 7nm?
When I last checked a couple of months ago, SMIC's 14nm accounted for less than 10% of their sales. I have the impression that this company is slightly over-hyped on this forum.
SMIC is at around 10nm (SMIC N) and will start manufacturing at 7nm (SMIC N+1) this year.
SMIC's major customer for 14nm was Huawei and they got sanctioned. SMIC itself is sanctioned and can't buy tools or materials at the rate they want.
Their only bottleneck are the sanctions. They ordered EUV tools from ASML two ago years already. Compare that with Intel or GlobalFoundries, which aren't sanctioned, and tell me again they're over hyped.
Last edited:
Because we established earlier, by US's own admission, that SMIC was a mere 2 years behind 20 years ago.And how does that equate to SMIC is further behind than SMIC was 20 years ago like you claimed?
SMIC shipped 14nm in 2020 while the first 14nm was shipped in 2014. That's 6 years.
EDIT:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@SleepyStudent linked the . Here's a quote:
Take a look at how many countries are members of the Wassenaar Arrangement today.Since 1986, China has narrowed the gap between the U.S. and Chinese semiconductor manufacturing technology from between seven to 10 years to two years or less. China's success in acquiring manufacturing technology from abroad has improved its semiconductor manufacturing facilities for more capable weapons systems and advanced consumer electronics. The multilateral Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Conventional Arms and Dual-Use Goods and Technologies has not affected China's ability to obtain semiconductor manufacturing equipment because the United States is the only member of this voluntary arrangement that considers China's acquisition of semiconductor manufacturing equipment a cause for concern.
Last edited:
Because we established earlier, by US's own admission, that SMIC was a mere 2 years behind 20 years ago.
I told you already, TSMC had 180nm available in 1998. SMIC only had it available much later.
The multilateral Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Conventional Arms and Dual-Use Goods and Technologies has not affected China's ability to obtain semiconductor manufacturing equipment because the United States is the only member of this voluntary arrangement that considers China's acquisition of semiconductor manufacturing equipment a cause for concern.
Such BS. SMIC can't purchase EUV tools for at least two years and it has been under US sanctions for a year.
I edited my post to add the source for my claim. That was back in 2002, so was probably referring to technology for nodes smaller than 180nm.I told you already, TSMC had 180nm available in 1998. SMIC only had it available much later.
Because we established earlier, by US's own admission, that SMIC was a mere 2 years behind 20 years ago.
EDIT:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@SleepyStudent linked the . Here's a quote:
Take a look at how many countries are members of the Wassenaar Arrangement today.
Gotcha.
Could that be because 20 years ago, they had access to a greater degree of the supply chain spectrum than they do now?
China's fabless is world leading but fab was always behind. Back then, they had more access to tools and equipment and they were roughly 2 years behind the world leading. Now they are trying to get 7nm process working allegedly by end of this year or thereabouts and so are probably more than 2 years behind but it would be done using only Chinese processes and sourced equipment.
20 years ago and certainly even up to a few years ago, Chinese policy makers were of the belief that these fab and equipment bans would never happen and all that was necessary for China in the field of semiconductors was fabless. They've clearly been doing exceptionally well in research and design of IC. Since they know better now and fab is becoming an area of focus, more resources are being put into fabrication then ever before.
So the "SMIC was closer to world leading around 20 years ago then it is today" is really quite unfair on SMIC today because today they don't have the same access they had 20 years ago while attention and effort have only been properly given to the fab side, now after bans. Like it's been said earlier, China's fab have put in minimal effort in the past. They didn't care and we may condemn them for not caring then but now there are market forces helping out and it's important. No one can deny that the effort they put in in the past is minute compared to what is going in now.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.