Chinese semiconductor industry

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Arcgem

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Hendrik_2000 said:
No metallurgy is more an art than science basically trial and error The west has advantage since they started it a long time ago and accumulated experience and skill over time America just take over this experience and skill. China has to figure it out by herself

Laser and plasma technology is more of science than experiment there is formula there huge knowledge that you can apply like computer simulation computer calculation, physical theory etc. And as free guy said very limited environment condition It all play to China strength in Physics and Math
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There is still the problem of manufacturing the technology. Would precision machining then be more of an art/craft as well?
Maybe a research lab with access to lab-grade equipment can produce a one-off demonstrator. Even then, the machine might take a long time to process wafers, or the yield might be terrible. To scale up, you increase the quality (requires iteration, better tech) and the quantity (requires making more of them, hopefully with just factory-grade, not lab-grade equipment).
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Arcgem said:
There is still the problem of manufacturing the technology. Would precision machining then be more of an art/craft as well?
Maybe a research lab with access to lab-grade equipment can produce a one-off demonstrator. Even then, the machine might take a long time to process wafers, or the yield might be terrible. To scale up, you increase the quality (requires iteration, better tech) and the quantity (requires making more of them, hopefully with just factory-grade, not lab-grade equipment).
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You seem not knowing that China is the biggest producer of CNC machinery producer todate paradoxically because the US put embargo on CNC machinery way back then. So machining is not a problem China export precision machinery all over the world EVen the new subway line in Soviet built using China TBM
 
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Arcgem

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Hendrik_2000 said:
You seem not knowing that China is the biggest producer of CNC machinery producer todate paradoxically because the US put embargo on CNC machinery way back then. So machining is not a problem China export precision machinery all over the world EVen the new subway line in Soviet built using China TBM
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I did not know that. Do you know how China's CNC offerings measure up to those abroad, such as the ones from Germany?
 
Phead128

Phead128

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FriedRiceNSpice said:
Phead128 said:
FriedRiceNSpice said:
It is no coincidence that while China has managed to catch up to the rest of the world in so many different fields, aero engines and semiconductors are the two main fields that China is still lagging behind in.
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Can you name a single country that has leading jet engine tech and leading nodes? (Don't say US, because Intel abdicated the throne) Saying China lacks leading tech in jet engines & leading nodes, well, EVERY COUNTRY lacks that too. Saying the most obvious isn't really insightful.
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Yes, very few countries can do semiconductors and jet engines. That is the point - it is extremely difficult and requires very large investments of time and resources. China has the resources to master these fields, but it is still going to take time. With engines, since China started earlier, it is already close to reaping the fruits of its investment, but it did take a very long time. You are right with Moore's law, it means at least China does not have to chase a moving target, which does make it easier to catch-up.
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Taiwan/Korea can't make jet engines. Only TSMC/Samsung can make LEADING nodes. Intel abandoned the throne to TSMC. So no nation on earth can claim to be making LEADING jet engines and LEADING nodes, so you faulting China for not doing so is very disingenous. No other nation on earth can do leading tech in both industries, so you can't fault China for not doing it, that's lazy arm-chair punditry.

Using your logic, is China among the "Very few nations" that make semiconductors and jet engines? China has made over +300 WS-10 engines and SMIC is producing 14nm.
 
FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

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Phead128 said:
Taiwan/Korea can't make jet engines. Only TSMC/Samsung can make LEADING nodes. Intel abandoned the throne to TSMC. So no nation on earth can claim to be making LEADING jet engines and LEADING nodes, so you faulting China for not doing so is very disingenous. No other nation on earth can do leading tech in both industries, so you can't fault China for not doing it, that's lazy arm-chair punditry.

Using your logic, is China among the "Very few nations" that make semiconductors and jet engines? China has made over +300 WS-10 engines and SMIC is producing 14nm.
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You seem to keep missing my point entirely. I am not faulting China for not being able to produce semiconductors and jet engines. The fact that so few nations are able to do either should illustrate how difficult both endeavors can be, and why both endeavors would take even China a long time to succeed in. If doing either was easy and quick, then there wouldn't be so few countries able to do so. Like I said already, China is close when it comes to turbofans, and it is only matter of time before it achieves self-sufficiency in semiconductors too.
 
Phead128

Phead128

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Arcgem said:
There is still the problem of manufacturing the technology. Would precision machining then be more of an art/craft as well?
Maybe a research lab with access to lab-grade equipment can produce a one-off demonstrator. Even then, the machine might take a long time to process wafers, or the yield might be terrible. To scale up, you increase the quality (requires iteration, better tech) and the quantity (requires making more of them, hopefully with just factory-grade, not lab-grade equipment).
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This is true for literally every worthwhile manufacturing endeavor. So saying it needs reiteration and commercial viability is not very special. China would have never achieved catching up with the West in any other manufacturing goal if it didn't innovate, reiterate, and achieve commercially viable yields. Duh, it's not insightful.

EUV lithography is much easier than Single-crystalline blades.

  • For one EUV lithography is just short-wave light, and the laws of physics mandate only a few limited ways to refract 13.5nm light off a mirror using a laser. You can more or less hack it with formulas and equations unlike metallurgy which is more art of trial-error.
  • For Single-crystalline blades, there is an ungodly number of combinations or variants of type of materials and composition of multiple materials and different manufacturing processes you can use. This requires decades and decades of experience of trial-error. There are a ton more variables outside your control for single-crystalline blades.
 
FriedRiceNSpice

FriedRiceNSpice

Captain
silentlurker said:
Making chips is easy and quick, making competitive chips isn't.

Most nations around the world have to weigh the costs and risks of investment to the profits they could make in an industry dominated by established companies.
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Yes, but isn't the goal here to make competitive chips? If the goal is just to make chips, then what is there left to discuss?
Shouldn't the goals be: have sufficient capacity to supply domestic chipmakers with comparable EUV lithography tools or comparable alternative technology, and be able to utilize these tools in actual chip fabs that can make comparable chips to Samsung / TSMC?
 
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silentlurker

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My point is for internal consumption by Huawei, the chips don't have to be competitive right out of the gate since they have no other sources. I just want to remind that having transistors a few nm behind is not a dealbreaker for enterprise products
 
Phead128

Phead128

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Moderator - World Affairs
FriedRiceNSpice said:
Yes, very few countries can do semiconductors and jet engines. That is the point - it is extremely difficult and requires very large investments of time and resources. China has the resources to master these fields, but it is still going to take time. With engines, since China started earlier, it is already close to reaping the fruits of its investment, but it did take a very long time. You are right with Moore's law, it means at least China does not have to chase a moving target, which does make it easier to catch-up.
Click to expand...

FriedRiceNSpice said:
You seem to keep missing my point entirely. I am not faulting China for not being able to produce semiconductors and jet engines. The fact that so few nations are able to do either should illustrate how difficult both endeavors can be, and why both endeavors would take even China a long time to succeed in. If doing either was easy and quick, then there wouldn't be so few countries able to do so. Like I said already, China is close when it comes to turbofans, and it is only matter of time before it achieves self-sufficiency in semiconductors too.
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You keep on referring to mysterious countries that can do both semiconductors and jet engines. Then you switched to EITHER semicoductor or jet engines. Is China part of this list? since it produced over +300 WS-10 engines and SMIC can make 14nm chips.

Can you name these "very few" countries that can do both semiconductors AND jet engines? (and do it at the very leading edge)
 
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