Chinese semiconductor industry

ansy1968 said:

Hi localizer,

So the US wants Huawei to follow Samsung example and become an American company? to lessen the pressure and eased the sanction? I read REN ZHENG FEI in the early years plan to do so.

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Tencent 31% is South African (Naspers)

Alibaba 30% is Japanese (Softbank)

Naspers and Softbank have shareholders all over the world as well.



Those (US and EU) who say China doesn’t allow foreign investment are just sad they didn’t get in on the action early enough.

Lets decompose this logically. EUVL is essentially 2 major components. 1) Light source 2) Mirrors for collecting and focusing light

1) Light source --> A high power laser inside a vacuum that is timed to hit tin to produce EUV light.

2) Mirrors --> Same as the ones used in space telescopes

Im pretty sure China has all the components necessary to build a prototype EUV machine. Given that China has plenty of experience with direct energy weapons and space Telescopes, etc.

In my opinion, the problem isn't the components, its a matter of combining the components together and perfecting it. Lithography is challenging because you need to have minimal variation in what your trying to print.

Will it take 10 yrs? I doubt it. They aren't starting from scratch.

Remember it took ASML 10 yrs to perfect EUV. But it doesn't mean anything. First of all, ASML as a private company is beholden to financial planning. Investors are short sighted and always want to milk current technology for short term returns. I doubt they were throwing the kitchen sink at EUV. There were also no demand until 7nm. TSMC wanted to do everything in its power to milk the 193nm excimer laser machines until they couldn't anymore before upgrading to EUV.

Plus, europeans work 10-4 days, they aren't desperate for a EUV breakthrough.

China on the other IS throwing the kitchen sink at EUV. its not just one company or institution, essentially anyone in the entire country of 1.5 billion people who has any expertise in the components listed are tasked to work on this project. Huawei is working 24 hours 7 days a week. I imagine the same for the project.

Lastly, China benefits from the fact that many of the people who work at ASML are from China. So there is a good chance a lot of data is being leaked.

We should stop buying into the media hype that EUV is some sort of kryptonite that only the ubermensch at ASML can make.

It's a high powered laser in a vacuum that turns tin into plasma. If have a high power laser, a vacuum chamber, and some liquid tin. You could probably diy a EUV light source at home. The challenge isn't that. It's perfecting it and making it economicallt viable.

Science uses a lot of big words to make it seem what they doing is hyper complex.

Orthan said:

Can you provide evidence that china has replicated the ASML EUV tools? The links only refer to R&D.

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I should have been more exact in my statements. "China has replicated the operation of ASML EUV tool in generating EUV rays(wavelength of 13.5nm, same as ASML) by LPP method. They also made multi-layer mirrors to control and focus the EUV. These 2 are the most difficult technical hurdles in making an EUV litho tool". Obviously they did not made an exact copy . But there are other ways of generating EUV rays, China is exploring, including DPP on tin, LPP on gadolinium, and possibly DPP on xenon. China has been R&D on EUV since 2008.

Via Vincent

People here are so lazy. It took me literally 90 seconds to find this:


"Experiments of pulse CO2 laser produced tin plasma had been carried out. Plasma parameters of electron temperature and density measurements both in axial and radial direction had been performed from a two-dimensional time and space resolved image spectra analysis. Debris speed of laser produced plasma in various buffer gas was quantitatively estimated by means of a fast gated intensified charge coupled device imaging system. The stopping power of the hydrogen buffer gas was assessed under ambient pressure ranging from 30 to 104 Pa."

This is 2013. From huazhong university. Clearly they have some sort of prototype light source EUV 7 years ago!!!

coolieno99 said:

I should have been more exact in my statements. "China has replicated the operation of ASML EUV tool in generating EUV rays(wavelength of 13.5nm, same as ASML) by LPP method. They also made multi-layer mirrors to control and focus the EUV. These 2 are the most difficult technical hurdles in making an EUV litho tool". Obviously they did not made an exact copy . But there are other ways of generating EUV rays, China is exploring, including DPP on tin, LPP on gadolinium, and possibly DPP on xenon. China has been R&D on EUV since 2008.

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Don't forget my favorite EUV generator and the Holy grail of EUV light sources. The free electron laser.

@free_6ix9ine

Don't forget the mechanical components in lithography machines.

Picometer precision while moving at m/s.

China is bad at this area, that's why Chinese been trying to acquire more german machining firms.

free_6ix9ine said:

People here are so lazy. It took me literally 90 seconds to find this:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Experiments of pulse CO2 laser produced tin plasma had been carried out. Plasma parameters of electron temperature and density measurements both in axial and radial direction had been performed from a two-dimensional time and space resolved image spectra analysis. Debris speed of laser produced plasma in various buffer gas was quantitatively estimated by means of a fast gated intensified charge coupled device imaging system. The stopping power of the hydrogen buffer gas was assessed under ambient pressure ranging from 30 to 104 Pa."

This is 2013. From huazhong university. Clearly they have some sort of prototype light source EUV 7 years ago!!!

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Huazhong University is developing LPP EUV Light Source.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Via Vincent

From havok Production rate of 28nm immersive lithography machine is less than 5 next year. Mass production begins in 2022. The machines are only good for 28nm chips. New versions need to be developed for smaller nodes. U-precision will set up a support centre in Shanghai for SMEE Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content! 发表于 2020-10-23 16:29 | 只看该作者 RE: 莫大康：光刻机是开路先锋 mac_sed 发表于 2020-10-22 20:31 明年浸没式双工件台也有机会进行生产吗？ 有，不过产量很小 <5台/年。华卓明年会在上海张江科学园区与上微合作建零部件创新中心，为国产高端

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Hendrik_2000 said:

Via Vincent

From havok Production rate of 28nm immersive lithography machine is less than 5 next year. Mass production begins in 2022. The machines are only good for 28nm chips. New versions need to be developed for smaller nodes. U-precision will set up a support centre in Shanghai for SMEE Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content! 发表于 2020-10-23 16:29 | 只看该作者 RE: 莫大康：光刻机是开路先锋 mac_sed 发表于 2020-10-22 20:31 明年浸没式双工件台也有机会进行生产吗？ 有，不过产量很小 <5台/年。华卓明年会在上海张江科学园区与上微合作建零部件创新中心，为国产高端光刻机提供核心供应支撑。

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This first version of SMEE 28nm Lithograph is supposedly equivalent to ASML 1980i Lithograph. More advanced versions will be coming out soon and will be equivalent to ASML 2000i Lithograph.

Regardless, this version of 28nm Lithograph should still be able to do 7nm Chips with Multi Patterning.
SMIC has the ASML 1980i Lithograph in its FABs which it is probably using to make 14nm Chips.