Chinese purchase of Su-35

Air Force Brat said:

Designing and building a 5Gen fighter has been a very high priority, and the Chinese are showing far more success than the Russians have to date!

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here you show even more bias

J-31=engines borrowed from MiG-29 highly successful design so successful that it has an engine first flown in 1977.

J-20=engines from Su-27, flown in 1981

what success you will have if you do not develop the engine?

PAKFA my friend in flying with an engine first tested in 2010, China is building fuselages, yes more than Russia, but Russia is flying their fuselages with better engines and type 30 is even better than F119.

Performance wise PAKFA is capable to beat F-22, China at this moment lacks the engine, so J-20 and J-31 have not better performance than F-22

Do you think anyone will believe J-31 will outperform the F-22 be my guest.


the Russians have ample experience in composites, the MiG-29 was one of their first jets to make use of them, this in from 1977, SSJ-100 is the same.

China has made advances, no one denies that, but their 5th generation program is not more advanced than Russia, and any one can attest just by seeing the engine type they are flying.

Su-35 will be a quantum leap, in fact Su-35 by super cruising will leave any J-11 outperformed, and if you do not know Su-35 is said to increase fuel capacity in the same volume and fuselage shape, plus it reduces RCS to a soccerball size, Su-35 has ample use of new materials, and if you doubt about the Russian quality, tell me how many people in the West and in the world are flying ARJ-21, do you know the wings on ARJ-21 were designed with help of Antonov and it is no more than a revamped DC-9?

China still is playing catching up

b787 said:

here you show even more bias

J-31=engines borrowed from MiG-29 highly successful design so successful that it has an engine first flown in 1977.

J-20=engines from Su-27, flown in 1981

what success you will have if you do not develop the engine?

PAKFA my friend in flying with an engine first tested in 2010, China is building fuselages, yes more than Russia, but Russia is flying their fuselages with better engines and type 30 is even better than F119.

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Both the PAK FA and the J-20 are using interim engines, so what's your point here?

b787 said:

Performance wise PAKFA is capable to beat F-22, China at this moment lacks the engine, so J-20 and J-31 have not better performance than F-22

Do you think anyone will believe J-31 will outperform the F-22 be my guest.

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I'd like to see evidence that the PAK FA is capable of matching (let alone beating) the F-22 in any aspect of its performance.

b787 said:

the Russians have ample experience in composites, the MiG-29 was one of their first jets to make use of them, this in from 1977, SSJ-100 is the same.

China has made advances, no one denies that, but their 5th generation program is not more advanced than Russia, and any one can attest just by seeing the engine type they are flying.

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I'm fairly we would be singing a drastically different tune if we are to gauge 5th generation programs on AESA radars rather than engines (note that neither of which is a reasonable yardstick of fighter development).

b787 said:

Su-35 will be a quantum leap, in fact Su-35 by super cruising will leave any J-11 outperformed, and if yo do not know Su-35 is said to increase fuel capacity in the same volume and fuselage shape, plus reduce RCS to a soccerball size, Su-35 has ample use of new materials, and if you doubt about the Russian quality, tell me how many people in the West and in the world are flying ARJ-21, do you know the wings on ARJ-21 were designed with help of Russia and it is no more than a revamped DC-9?

China still is playing catching up

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Supercruise in and of itself is essentially useless in combat and the quality isn't indicative of an aircraft's holistic performance. Additionally, we don't know if the J-11X series are capable of supercruise or not.

A brief look at avionics and the recent developments in AAM technology makes it quite apparent that, at least in these two aspects, the J-11D/16 are far ahead of any Russian-built Flanker.

SinoSoldier said:

Both the PAK FA and the J-20 are using interim engines, so what's your point here?



I'd like to see evidence that the PAK FA is capable of matching (let alone beating) the F-22 in any aspect of its performance.



I'm fairly we would be singing a drastically different tune if we are to gauge 5th generation programs on AESA radars rather than engines (note that neither of which is a reasonable yardstick of fighter development).



Supercruise in and of itself is essentially useless in combat and the quality isn't indicative of an aircraft's holistic performance. Additionally, we don't know if the J-11X series are capable of supercruise or not.

A brief look at avionics and the recent developments in AAM technology makes it quite apparent that, at least in these two aspects, the J-11D/16 are far ahead of any Russian-built Flanker.

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no need to argue with you, remember this China will conquest Siberia, but the orthodox christian Church will conquest China, when you know the riddles meaning, you will understand why you can not see many things clear

b787 said:

no need to argue with you, remember this China will conquest Siberia, but the orthodox christian Church will conquest China, when you know the riddles meaning, you will understand why you can not see many things clear

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In other words, you've neither the technical reasoning nor logical grounds to rebuke the previous post.

Blackstone said:

It looks like a done deal, but what's the reason for so much doubts?

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There is so much doubt because of the boy who cries wolf, except this boy has been crying wolf about twice every year for about seven-eight years already and still hasn't learned his lesson.

Everytime we are told it is a "done deal", and everytime nothing materialized. I think the Russian fanboys are completely detached from reality at this point, and are now extrapolating from their own extrapolation of events. Basically, there was another round of "the contract has been signed", from which it was extrapolated that manufacturing has began, and from that it is now extrapolated that delivery is due to start. During all of that, the Russian government said that no deal has been finalized.

Equation said:

"Russia has not formally signed a contract to sell the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E and S-400 surface-to-air missile system to China. Right now, Moscow has only agreed in principle to sell those advanced weapons to China.

“First of all, let’s be accurate. We have not sold yet,” said retired Lt. Gen. Evgeny Buzhinsky (Ret.), chairman of the executive board of Russia’s PIR Center
"

I smell no sale in this one. Notice the tone and underlying language written lately?

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Thanks for the trans my friend.

It is just as I have thought.

I will still only believe the SU-35 for the PRC when I see them on the ground in China in Chinese coors and oepnly announced by the Chinese officials.

I think we should temporarily close this thread and only reopen ONCE someone has DEFINITIVE confirmation backed up by irrefutable facts or documents/pictures etc that the Sukhois are indeed in Chinese hands and/or physically in a Chinese airbase!

This topic has been dead, then revived so many times, it makes the entire cast of The Walking Dead look like amatuers.

I love this bi-polar thread. As far as I can see it's the same old same old stuff we've been seeing since this whole thing started. And I see the same excuse for why this deal is not going through about IP theft has surfaced again. That's probably the most stupidest excuse throughout this whole thing. If IP was a concern, then that would be it and we would never hear of this deal anymore. The Russians wouldn't even bother so why would they keep peddling it? That's because it's the excuse that covers up everything that maybe wrong about the SU-35 that the Chinese didn't find it worthy. The Russians don't want any negative advertisement over the aircraft that might hurt sales. If the Chinese don't want it it's because it's not better than their fighters so why would anyone else want to buy it. All the potential customers are mostly countries that are concerned with China. Keep making it look that China is begging for it then it must be a great fighter that can beat anything China has. That keeps the Su-35 still a conversation piece with potential buyers. Yeah notice people have forgotten the 48 China supposedly wanted to buy is now down to 24? Want to tell me it's concern for IP theft? If China needed this fighter, why isn't the number higher not lower. May be it's so good 24 can actually do the job of 48. All the excuses put out there contradict one of the others. If it has nothing to do as a favor for Russia, then strategically China shouldn't buy it regardless if it as good they say. No one is buying it now, If China is not going to buy it, no one is except maybe in small numbers and China doesn't have to worry about that. Remember how they tried to make it when Vietnam bought better Flankers that the Russian sold to them and all of sudden Vietnam was going to have air superiority over China? India should be the primary customer and they ain't buying. Besides if China isn't getting the best export version, then it shouldn't buy it all. Maybe that's the sticking point since Russia has notoriously done that in the past. Personally I believe if China buying the Su-35 is true, then it's a part of something else that China wants more and it's that the Russians are more likely reluctant. The fact is if the Russians are willing to sell the Su-35 to China that wants it, then China would have it without any discussion.

b787 said:

The second reason is copy rights, Russia got very angry at China for scrapping the deal of the Su-27 license, the original deal was China was going to build the fuselage, Russia the engines and related subsystems, China did not fulfill their part of the deal. and the J-11 started production with domestic content, by 2013 too Russia and China were talking about copy rights in specific Sukhoi`s license of Su-27.

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The copyrights issue is just a distraction invented by Russians. Both sides entered the Su-27 deal with the understanding that the aircraft would eventually be indigenized. In case you do not know, indigenization means Chinese side is to eventually build the Flanker with 100% domestic components, which the Chinese accomplished. The Russians weren't deceived, and the J-11 is hardly "an illegal copy" unlike the Russian claimed.

The real issue is that Chinese side was able to switch to 100% domestic components so quickly. It shows that the Russian components were so crap and outdated, that China being so backward at the time was still able to build the Su-27 better. Yet, the Russians at the time still insisted on China paying for substandard goods. Naturally, the Chinese terminated the deal early.

That was twenty years ago. Even assuming aviation industry of both countries progressed at the exact same rate since then, it would still mean China comes out ahead. Yet, we all know that China is progressing faster. The notion that Russia is still being ahead only exists in certain fanboy's fantasy.

Hyperwarp said:

Good news! So the earliest we might get to see some photos would be in late December? J-11D is nowhere to be seen, so these Su-35S will give the PLAAF a nice boost. Wonder what camo they will adopt.

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If the Su-35 comes with Chinese avionics, I would agree. However, even according to the Russian media, any Su-35 sold to China is to have full Russian system, so much so that even the language has to be in Russian. A fighter aircraft that cannot be fitted into existing Chinese C4ISR and logistical infrastructure is a hindrance, not a boost. That is also why this rumoured deal at its current state does not make sense at all.