Chinese Martial Arts Thread


shanlung

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For all it is worth.
No longer applicable to me as I am pushing into 70, and with one bad knee, and a wonky ankle on other leg.
I gave up chasing SYTs as they can walk faster than I can run now.

But in the distant past of my younger days, I would have been happy to step into the octagon then.

Now extracts from my memoirs.
Taiping thoughts //Ivan photos//Camera malfunction at NanHwaShi//Combat Taijichuan -some notes
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Partial extract to keep to 10,000 characters limit


I thought I should write down some of my experiences of Taijichuan before it faded away.
Sadly, taijichuan started to go away from me when Tinkerbell came into my life as seen in my earlier writing here.

I was martial arts inclined. Started with Korean TKD and Goju ryu. And later with Shaolin Kungfun passed down indirectly by a Shaolin Monk Sek Koh Sum who came from China to be Abbot in Singapore Suan Lin Tse. That Abbot died before my interest in martial arts was kindled. One of his tudi was my friend. I got to where I could snap the top half with a chop or reversed punch of a brick placed on palm of a hand. With Judo done in school and Western boxing done in my Army days, I had my share of real knocks and bumps.

I knew little of taijichuan other than that first encounter very much earlier on and which left a good respect for that. I had not even known of the different schools of taijichuan thinking they were all the same.

Which was why I was doing the Sun Jia Taijichuan, largely because of another Chinese MA guy I respected and he asked me to join him. Later on, I learned Sun Jia was from Sun Lutang, a guy who was good in HsingYi and Pakua and later learned taijichuan. Sun jia was a fusion of HsingYi, Pakua and taijichuan. I was at this for a few years following that lady. She was a student of Sun Lu Tang.

Then in 1980, Chen Hsiao Wang, the Jangmengpai of Chen Jia came to Singapore with the opening up of China.
He hold a demonstration as a kind of announcement of his arrival. During his demo, he asked for 2 volunteers to come up and lock his arms. To my delight and surprise, I saw two of my friends walking to him. One was a 3rd dan Aikido and the other was a no nonsense Shaolin brother. I thought then armlocks by either of them cannot be broken ever. At the word that both were ready, the next moment saw both flung apart as CHW broke their locks with ease.

I signed up for CHW classes immediately. The Chen jia Lau Jia, the Jiang, the Chiang, the Dao was learned from him.
The first fajing was shown by CHW. But sadly because of that, I was mislead further away from fajing then before. Not the fault of CHW. But he was quite muscular at that time. And the mind , like a monkey, only want to believe what one want to believe.

That fajing is physical, and therefore must be from muscular/tendon background. And CHW was muscular.

I was unable to discard the lifetime of scientific western perceptions and
engineering background I had. Taiji was then interpreted by me in such a
light, grouped and generalised until it became 'understandable'. Techniques
were classified into vectorial forces and certain groups for
effect/response. 'Energy' should no longer be the static stiffness of
muscles. The whip-like effects from the legs and abdomenal/hips rotations
were equated to the 'chi' talked about. As my 'tui shou'(pushing hands)
encounters with others normally do not have me losing, I thought I won and I
thought Taiji was within my grasp.

My constant reading of the books on Taiji chuan and the TTC had me
interpreting them with the perceptions of my experiences. Rationalizations
fitted those nuggets into compartments in my mind with me feeling
justifiably proud of my 'progress'.

In 1990, I found myself in Taipei working on their mass rapid transit
system. Early morning will have me in their parks doing my taiji excercises
and 'tui shou' with uneven results.

There are masters and Masters but I was yet unable to see or know the
differences until the day I met Masters.

There were two who cannot leave my mind now. One had to walk with a cane
and need to be assisted by us to go up the steps leading to the Sun yat sen
memorial hall. Another was a slim elderly man,so slim that a strong wind
may blow him done, in the Hsingkongyuan(new Taipei park) south of the
Taipei railway station. Their weight was about 80-90 lbs.

Those two were so skinny that they were almost like walking skeletons. From time to time, I help Master Lee up the steps to SYS memorial hall and hold his arms which almost like broom stick. And when he laid down his cane for the tui shou, my body was compelled to go where it did not want to go.

It was also so laughable with the Master at HsingKongYuan.
I used to go there on some weekends to do almost free sparring with one and all. I noticed Master Liu watching me a few times. He looked like in late 70s and I thought he was toddling about there in the park for exercises. Until he asked me to try with him. As a matter of face, we all restrained ourselves. I even more with that sweet old dear.

He then started to talk with me when we were arms to arms, that he sadly over estimated me. That I was just a lump of fat and flesh with no strength at all. My politeness evaporated and I quickened my steps. He evaporated away from the center of my arms. I was very quick and he remained very slow, but not there. And kept talking to me how disappointed he was in me. And next moment, I was send flying. I came back more determined then ever. He moved like a wraith of smoke and again, I flew. I could not believe what was happening to me, lessons more intense than at SYS memorial hall with that other Master Lee. Again and again and again. My friends with me and watching all that said I was lucky. Master Liu hardly bother to do that with them. I left him with respect amounting to awe, and he asked me to see him again next week end.

I never could put the words to what Master Liu did at HKY, until I saw the movie Alien 3 - Resurrection a few years later. If you have seen this movie, you would have seen Ellen Ripley, made with genes crossed over from Alien, playing basketball with a bunch of kick ass Marines. Effortlessly toying with them, and with powers way beyond them. What was special effects happened in real life then, and at subsequent visits to Master Liu at HKY and Master Lee at SYS. Master Liu / Lee was Ripley, and I the muscle bound kick ass flat footed Marine.

It finally dawned on me in light of what happened to me that fa jing was not muscles at all. They said I lacked the faith. One cannot get the faith by reading and reading. You had to be thrown and thrown, tossed and throwned until you get it out of your head that muscles were not involved as they had no muscles to begin with. Which was why they told me what jia did not matter once I understood. Master Lee did the Yang jia to warm up before tuishou. Master Liu just do the tuishou with me on every 2nd Sunday or so when I saw him. Master Liu never told me what jia he did. He would ask me if I want to talk or tuishou, and then proceed to tui with me. I loved the mountains of Taiwan too much to be that dedicated to taijichuan with with Masters.

Not all came from those 2 Masters. I was doing the Chen jia Chen Fah Ker and the Yang Jia and Yang Jia Suan Tui shou. The Yang Jia Suan Tui Shou came from a Master Tan teaching in a tiny park next to my block in MingSheng Ser Chi. This YJSTS was actually an exercise in Ting Jing. I was so nearly kicked out by Master Tan until I latched on, and stopped doing what I took for granted, anticipating the moves, like in conventional MA. I had to use Tingjing (listening Jing). I cannot put into words the difference.
 

shanlung

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Registered Member
I learned each moves and the transitionings were the most important, and not just the moves. The journey is as much as the destinations. If it is just the move, then there must be just ONE form, not the multiple of forms.

From the TingJing, you get the Dong Jing (understanding Jing). That it was the Tingjing that slipped the Masters out of my hand. That even without Fa Jing, Ting Jing was more than enough to take care of attacks to lead that attack elsewhere.

I went back to Taiwan again after my initial contract was over just to do taichichuan.
I was staying in Al Amigo guest house, a cheap hostel with flat rooftop that I shared with buskers, English teachers, and other folks
I was doing about 6-7 hours of tajijichuan, 4 hours on my own and 2 with my Masters.
Doing the forms over and over and over and over again. Doing that with the Yi and alignment, to point I need not hold that in my mind.
Taiwan is a place where it rained much of the time. One period of extensive rain lead to a good breakthrough in taijichuan for me. I was in the staircase landing looking at the roof wondering if the rain would stop. In the tight space of the staircase landing, I thought I would do my form. You known the space required to do the Yang Jia long form and Chen Jia Chen Fah Ker form. With stepping back, and intermediate stepping, I found I could do those forms in constrained space, and with the feeling of doing it at regular wide space. I felt constrained space was better in that fights might well happened in constrained space. Later on, I discussed this with my Masters and showed them what I did within the space of 4 flagstones. They were happy with what I had done.
Those were the days before the Internet. I do think the Internet is not conducive to good Martial Arts, in that more time is wasted writing and reading instead of the doing.

There were obviously local students with my Masters, Taiwanese who were born into the Chinese language and many were good in Wen Yen Wen too. With their mastery of Chinese, they were way behind me in Tuishou. They did not spend as many hours as I did in the forms, in getting the alignment right and not thinking of the chi as I used to kid myself in the past. With chi here and chi there and chi everywhere which was nothing but figment of imagination. After all, by the time you think of the chi, the fight can be over, so why bother to think of the chi when it is just there if you only have the faith. My Masters showed time and time again no muscles were ever needed for the chi. They barely had enough muscles to stand upright.
I also found if Master Liu was on a good day, his fajing was direct and simple. When I was send back, it was a simple fajing. If he was feeling wicked with me, he twist his jing when he was fahing the jing. I would get twisted , and saved from a tumbling fall because he would catch me before I fall.

In the Al Amigo hostel, now and then we would have a party up the roof of the 7 floor apartment at Chilin road. Tables were brought up with beers and cakes.

I had been quite conspicuous there, with my taiji practices. Another guy also living there had been asking me to have a match which I had been declining. He told me he was doing Shoto Kan for about 12 years, and in Taipei to learn Hung Chuan. Just arm length from me, he threw a series of punches to show how fast he punched. In my mind, I was glad I never accepted his earlier challenges as he was lightning fast.

He then execute another series of punches. I knew one was heading for my jaw with intent to hurt. That split second , time slowed enough for me to have turn my body sinking down slightly with my right arm into a danpian leading his fist just out from my jaw. His withdrawal of fist was then lead by me into a haidijen.

I was conscious we were on the roof top with low parapet walls, surround by people having a good time. Fajing would fly him to the tables or to people, or over the parapet wall down to the street 7 floors below. I also wanted to defuse that situation as troubles was the last thing on my mind as that would get me kicked out of Taiwan forever.

With scarsely a thought, I pour fajing into my haidijen and the image of his body through the rood slab into the center of the Earth. And felt his body rammed vertically down and his legs were wobbly. I was so close that I supported him so he could not fall down. I never thought fajing could be done downwards. All un-premeditated. All with wuwei, or as tze run as could be. All in line with the Tao.

I spoke quietly in his ears that we should stop or folks around us be frightened and spoil the party.
He agreed very readily to my nice suggestion. We both had a beer and a quiet laugh. His friends around us had not a clue. We remained friends and he did not call on me again for any more demonstrations.

My sojourn into full time taijichuan ended when I was recalled back into service. I had a good pay check and stayed in a good apartment. But I could not spend more than 90 minutes on taijichuan daily just to tick over. Which I did regardless of the country I was in.

Until Tinkerbell came into my life.
And taijichuan went out as a result as I could not even find that 90 minutes daily.

But not entirely.
But that’s another story.

Idiotic Taoist

(a kind of postscript of my taijichuan in // Taijichuan at Koh Phagnan
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shanlung

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my taijichuan in // Taijichuan at Koh Phagnan
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I decided to copy what I wrote of some of my life in martial arts here as well.
I wrote that in some Taoist forum that I since left in disgust, and likely before I got kicked out.
They love to continue in their pretense there.

Kind of continuation of what I wrote in
Taiping thoughts //Camera malfunction at NanHwaShi//Combat Taijichuan -some notes
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Taijichuan at Koh Phagnan

In 1993 when I was about as good as I could be in taijichuan, I was on a walkabout on the island of Koh Phagnan off the Southern coast of Thailand.

I saw posters about on Taijichuan classes being taught by a taichi master. I had to ride on my bike and hunted down that place.

Saw that was a Caucasian in his mid 20s living in a Thai house all ready to teach taijichuan. He married a local thai.

We started chatting. I told him I was interested in taijichuan, leaving out my background as irrelevant. I was there to learn of him and not he to learn of me.

He proudly told me he finished the course of Yang jia taijichuan in Penang with an hour lesson twice week, taking about 6 months. He also showed me a pile of taichi books that he was reading, with another pile of video tapes on taichichuan. I asked him if he did tuishou in Penang and he told me his master there did not know tuishou but he picked that up from books. He told me his master thought he was good enough to open a taijischool after 3-4 more months there with him.

I got an earful of taijichuan and Tao from him. Everything came from the Tao. Roses , cowdung and a host of other things came from the Tao. So why not taijichuan? Even more so when the symbol for taijichuan is the YingYang sign?

Since I also had a glass of cold water from him, I let him go on and on.

Sadly that is about the state of taijichuan. Lots of masters and charlatans teaching more tiny masters and charlatans.
To wave and move arms and legs slowly will magically put you to feel the chi forces of the world and to tap on those energies.

Not knowing taijichuan, they created a world of chi running all over here and there, mixing up with taoism and fantasy and telling that one be at peace in the world and love all (to make sure they got cast in stone excuses that they need never have to show their Immortal Imcomparable Fist)

How to tell him that I was a mere student after years and years and not as elevated as he being a master. Perhaps he was wiser than me, and his twice weekly dose of taijichuan from someone who do not know how to tuishou was a lot better than my daily 6++ hours and with Masters that fajing me all over.

I felt we did not even have a common ground in which I could talk with him. Hands on with me would just embarrased him and I saw no need for me to be a self declared policeman as to purity of taijichuan. Beside, he was a nice chap and did give me a glass of water unasked . Just an interesting education for me as to the other facets of the world of taijichuan.

I thank him for the glass of water, said I think about his classes, and rode off back that road to a place where I knew I could get a nice cold Singha beer and watch the rest of the world go by.


Idiot on the Path
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8 April 2014
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
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Ah kool, I just found this thread. My 2 cents from my limited training in these disciplines over the years (Taekwondo, Karate, BJJ, and a little bit of Judo, Kendo, fencing & Boxing). IMO, All of these 'martial arts' aren't 'martial' in the true sense of the word. A good example of this is the evolution of Jiujitsu overtime. It began as a system to train the samurai to actually kill, which is why weapons training was a major part of that 'art.' Overtime, the weapons and the 'dangerous' techniques were subtracts, and Jiujitsu became Judo, and then Judo became BJJ, which is the foundation of what we call 'MMA.'

I've found that true 'martial arts' have to incorporate shooting disciplines. Handguns/Carbines/Rifles are the weapons of today, and if you're not proficient in these, then you're not doing anything 'martial.' This doesn't mean these 'arts' are useless. Learning to hit, get hit and avoid getting hit (i.e. becoming used to violence) is the foundational stepping stone. But there is a limit to it. A lot of people who religiously train BJJ believe that it is 'martial art' which can be used 'on the street.' Well, Martial Arts weren't meant for the 'street', they were meant for war. Good luck taking your armbar skills to an actual battlefield, or even against a person on the 'street' who pulls out a knife or a gun.

The other problem with these 'martial arts' is the absence of common sense and realistic conditions. For example, you can't "punch" someone in the face with full power, without a glove, without incurring a serious risk of shattering your hand. I saw a clip of heavy bag work being done by a former CIA operative, where he only used open-palm strikes (no gloves), which makes a lot more sense. (And by the way, that 'krav maga' crap is all BS. That's not what is being taught to these operators.) I also recently heard a trainer on a podcast who works with JSOC units, and he teaches them to seamlessly transition from a carbine, to a handgun, to a knife, to BJJ, and how to combine all of these tools/systems together. That is an example of a true 'martial art' in today's world, in my humble opinion.

The only option for civilians, for getting actual martial training is to have a good foundation on the basics of all the required tools and techniques, and then put the pieces together yourself. That's not easy, because you have to continually think about the efficacy of your techniques and evaluate whether they would actually work in the real world or not. That's nowhere near as efficient as a group environment being led by professional teachers.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Ah kool, I just found this thread. My 2 cents from my limited training in these disciplines over the years (Taekwondo, Karate, BJJ, and a little bit of Judo, Kendo, fencing & Boxing). IMO, All of these 'martial arts' aren't 'martial' in the true sense of the word. A good example of this is the evolution of Jiujitsu overtime. It began as a system to train the samurai to actually kill, which is why weapons training was a major part of that 'art.' Overtime, the weapons and the 'dangerous' techniques were subtracts, and Jiujitsu became Judo, and then Judo became BJJ, which is the foundation of what we call 'MMA.'

I've found that true 'martial arts' have to incorporate shooting disciplines. Handguns/Carbines/Rifles are the weapons of today, and if you're not proficient in these, then you're not doing anything 'martial.' This doesn't mean these 'arts' are useless. Learning to hit, get hit and avoid getting hit (i.e. becoming used to violence) is the foundational stepping stone. But there is a limit to it. A lot of people who religiously train BJJ believe that it is 'martial art' which can be used 'on the street.' Well, Martial Arts weren't meant for the 'street', they were meant for war. Good luck taking your armbar skills to an actual battlefield, or even against a person on the 'street' who pulls out a knife or a gun.

The other problem with these 'martial arts' is the absence of common sense and realistic conditions. For example, you can't "punch" someone in the face with full power, without a glove, without incurring a serious risk of shattering your hand. I saw a clip of heavy bag work being done by a former CIA operative, where he only used open-palm strikes (no gloves), which makes a lot more sense. (And by the way, that 'krav maga' crap is all BS. That's not what is being taught to these operators.) I also recently heard a trainer on a podcast who works with JSOC units, and he teaches them to seamlessly transition from a carbine, to a handgun, to a knife, to BJJ, and how to combine all of these tools/systems together. That is an example of a true 'martial art' in today's world, in my humble opinion.

The only option for civilians, for getting actual martial training is to have a good foundation on the basics of all the required tools and techniques, and then put the pieces together yourself. That's not easy, because you have to continually think about the efficacy of your techniques and evaluate whether they would actually work in the real world or not. That's nowhere near as efficient as a group environment being led by professional teachers.

I think Martial Arts, as the term is understood, is not meant for war but for civilian combat. In an actual battlefield, you don't need these kinds of training. You just need to know how to follow orders and march in formation.

To take your example of Jiujitsu, how often is a samurai going to be wrestling with his opponent on the battlefield? Sure it can happen, but it would be very rare. Both Kung Fu and Karate have civilian origins. Even HEMA is based on the writings of Fiore dei Liberi, whose swordsmanship manual is mostly meant for duels and other civilian skirmishes.
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
But that's the thing, the original form of Jiujitsu included weapon's training, which is what I said above. I just checked on the wiki page for it, so take this with a grain of salt (since I don't see a citation attached to this) but it adds up:

The written history of Jujutsu first began during the Nara period (c. 710 – c. 794) combining early forms of Sumo and various Japanese martial arts which were used on the battlefield for close combat. The oldest known styles of Jujutsu are, Shinden Fudo-ryū (c. 1130), Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū (c. 1447), and Takenouchi-ryū, which was founded in 1532. Many jujutsu forms also extensively taught parrying and counterattacking long weapons such as swords or spears via a dagger or other small weapons.

EDIT: The wiki article is a confusing source for this info. In the intro it says that Jiujitsu was originally for limited weapons or no weapons training, while other schools focused on weapon training specifically... In either case, it does seem that the original form of this system was focused on the battlefield nonetheless.
 
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subotai1

Junior Member
Registered Member
I've found that true 'martial arts' have to incorporate shooting disciplines. Handguns/Carbines/Rifles are the weapons of today, and if you're not proficient in these, then you're not doing anything 'martial.' This doesn't mean these 'arts' are useless. Learning to hit, get hit and avoid getting hit (i.e. becoming used to violence) is the foundational stepping stone. But there is a limit to it. A lot of people who religiously train BJJ believe that it is 'martial art' which can be used 'on the street.' Well, Martial Arts weren't meant for the 'street', they were meant for war. Good luck taking your armbar skills to an actual battlefield, or even against a person on the 'street' who pulls out a knife or a gun.

The other problem with these 'martial arts' is the absence of common sense and realistic conditions. For example, you can't "punch" someone in the face with full power, without a glove, without incurring a serious risk of shattering your hand. I saw a clip of heavy bag work being done by a former CIA operative, where he only used open-palm strikes (no gloves), which makes a lot more sense. (And by the way, that 'krav maga' crap is all BS. That's not what is being taught to these operators.)
Your comment feels a lot more like trolling and limited experience than anything else. But I will play along and see where this goes. But let's talk facts and experience. I have 40+ years of "martial arts" in Kungfu (multiple families). Kendo, TaeKwonDo and others (after a while you just start to continuously pick up tricks) and that includes deploying with and training military, police and other units.

On your comment on what makes up a "martial art", that's your opinion, you are welcome to it. Most people will disagree.

On your comments on learning to get hit, etc as a foundational stepping stone. This is not even close to accurate. And I suspect you had poor instructors. The foundation of martial arts is how to move and how to use your body. It starts with awareness of your body and how it moves and shifts and what parts work better than others. It then goes to footwork and torque. If you learn how to place that first step or shift of the body so that the energy flows up and allows you build then explode outwards, it makes all the difference in the world in terms of power (look at cricket and baseball players and how they swing their bats, that swing starts at the base of their body). But that body movement, stance and foot position also allows you to move silently, avoid moving dust or stop boards from creeking. It allows you to go around a corner in a position to strike or avoid what is on the other side. Whether you are holding a handgun, knife or bare handed, being able to position those as you move to and around are critical. Footwork, torque, stance, power in a small space. That is foundational.

Your comment on street vs war are naive. War is fought in a variety of conditions. On a battlefield where the bad guy is hundreds of meters away, sure you have to know to use that long gun. But war over large open battlefields is increasingly limited. Satellites, drones, cameras, missiles provide too much advantage, so war is and will increasingly be urban and close quarters combat.

As for someone pulling a knife versus gun on you, there are endless drills on how to handle that, how to dodge, grab disarm, redirect. The area of Chin Na is extremely valuable here and in other areas of CQC/B when it gets close and personal. We train SOF and police forces extensively in this, especially before we go in to urban areas like slums.

In terms of the realistic and common sense conditions, that again shows lack of understanding or lack of exposure to good training. Training tends to go this way. 1) Conditioning 2) Stance and Hand work 3)Sets/Forms 4)Set decomposition 5)sparing using set components 6)Free Form sparing 7)Many to one. The problem here is that most people and martial arts diploma mills focus on number or 3 or stop there. The good instructors know how to take a set/form and decompose it into its usable components and combinations. Sets exist to teach only, but they all can be broken down into 4 or 5 movements that when chained together are extremely effective. But the repetition that is part of these forms does well at teaching muscle memory. And as students advance (or depending on their experience) we expose them to a lot more and to more open conditions where anything goes (which is really fun in kungfu because we train with chairs, benches, rifles, lamps, whatever is an analog to traditional weapons or where there are forms that have those). And we also add in all kinds of real world tricks that you need to be shown (like step on someones foot during a fight and it completely throws them off both mentally and physically).

Lastly your comment on closed fist just isn't accurate. Lots of martial arts start with a closed fist and move to open hand techniques after the basic stuff is taught. But since using a fist is instinctual for a neophyte, one of the first thing we teach students is never hold your fist straight compared to the arm, don't put the thumb under the fingers, don't over extend when you punch etc. If you do it right, you won't break your hand. But, yes, open hands and other hand forms are far more useful. But it also has to be coupled with real world knowledge. For example, I like to swipe my hand across someone's face and eyes as a slap or claw. It makes their eyes water and messes with their vision. And btw, yes, we really do teach operators these things and much more.

So, my message here is this. Don't take a novice opinion and experience and apply it to something. Initial observations are usually completely wrong.
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your comment feels a lot more like trolling and limited experience than anything else.

And your comment 'feels a lot like' you got triggered and then hit reply, without actually thinking anything through. Case in point:

The foundation of martial arts is how to move and how to use your body.

No, that's the foundation of something like gymnastics. You're confusing the word "foundation" with the word "prerequisite." Learning how to move/use your body is a prerequisite for martial arts. If you want to learn how to slip a cross, or throw a spinning heel kick, you need to know how to move/use your body. But that doesn't make it the "foundation," unless your driving principle and underlying basis is just acrobatics, in which case, you should just be doing gymnastics, or take a crossfit class or whatever.

By the way, your post is way too much pointless rambling. For example:

War is fought in a variety of conditions. On a battlefield where the bad guy is hundreds of meters away, sure you have to know to use that long gun. But war over large open battlefields is increasingly limited. Satellites, drones, cameras, missiles provide too much advantage, so war is and will increasingly be urban and close quarters combat.

..... what the hell does this have to do with anything? You called me "naïve" and then started rambling about drones and satellites... It has nothing to do with what I said. Here's another example:

Lastly your comment on closed fist just isn't accurate. Lots of martial arts start with a closed fist and move to open hand techniques after the basic stuff is taught. But since using a fist is instinctual for a neophyte, one of the first thing we teach students is never hold your fist straight compared to the arm, don't put the thumb under the fingers, don't over extend when you punch etc. If you do it right, you won't break your hand. But, yes, open hands and other hand forms are far more useful. But it also has to be coupled with real world knowledge. For example, I like to swipe my hand across someone's face and eyes as a slap or claw. It makes their eyes water and messes with their vision. And btw, yes, we really do teach operators these things and much more.

.... first you say I'm "inaccurate" and then you end up agreeing with me... So that whole rambling paragraph was basically just pointless nitpicking drivel. I can go on with more examples but I'm gonna stop. You accused me of trolling, but I think you fit the definition a little better.
 
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