Chinese Engine Development

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Here is an idea that I think China should explore. Instead of building large turbofan engines, why not develop a turbine electric hybrid engine. Electric engines are more efficient and simpler to make than large turbofans. The downside to electric is the battery. So instead of using batteries, why not use a small turbine engine from a helicopter to generate electricity which is used to power the electric engines which drive fan or propeller? Wouldnt this be a much simpler and elegant solution to leapfrog ahead?
You know what's a better idea ? More investments and encouragement of Metallurgical Science and Material Science. Do that, create a domestic self-sustaining ecosystem for Engines/powerplants and the diety of Capitalism shall do the rest for China ( as usual).
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
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Hitting transonic and supersonic speeds isn’t just a matter of fan power. Due to aerodynamic dependence your fan can only push air up to Mach 1, at best, and as an air breathing reaction mass engine you can only go as fast as how quickly you can propel an airstream. Compressor based designs can get around this by getting extra propulsive velocity via increasing pressure, but on the other hand have much *higher* energy density requirements. The advantage of combustion for compressor based designs is that as you’re trying to drive the airstream beyond transonic speeds heat energy becomes much more efficient than mechanical energy at generating higher pressures and thus driving the velocity of the airstream, and your combustion reaction generates a lot of free heat to use, especially given that you’re basically getting part of that energy via the free stream via oxygen from the atmosphere rather than carrying it. With an all electric design you’d need to find another source of heat to get comparable levels of propulsive velocity, and you can’t get the freebie of extra heat energy provided by your environment.

I think for what it’s worth you don’t need a denser battery or a secondary electric generating turbine to get around the energy density problem for an all electric transonic design. Fuel cells theoretically speaking should be better than both. But if you don’t want a hard cap below transonic speeds you’re going to need to find an efficient way to convert enough electric power to heat that gives you total system efficiency comparable to your combustion driven turbines at transonic and supersonic speeds.

I agree. for a supersonic or transonic aircraft, fans alone will not work. Maybe an electric plasma jet would be a better approach for a supersonic design:

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The design here also uses a electric fan to drive air thru the plasma engine, so maybe in subsonic flight, the fan will provide all of the propulsion and the plasma jet will act as like an afterburner to achieve transonic or supersonic speeds.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
You know what's a better idea ? More investments and encouragement of Metallurgical Science and Material Science. Do that, create a domestic self-sustaining ecosystem for Engines/powerplants and the diety of Capitalism shall do the rest for China ( as usual).

Sure, but that's a very risk averse approach. There are leap-frog technologies that can achieve the same results but in an even faster time frame.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I agree. for a supersonic or transonic aircraft, fans alone will not work. Maybe an electric plasma jet would be a better approach for a supersonic design:

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The design here also uses a electric fan to drive air thru the plasma engine, so maybe in subsonic flight, the fan will provide all of the propulsion and the plasma jet will act as like an afterburner to achieve transonic or supersonic speeds.
That plasma jet design caught my attention to, and it looks like a really promising concept, but the question is always a matter of scalability. The physics that drive an effective proof of concept don’t always scale well when you try to go bigger.
 

Errys

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2020-07-28 22:32:03

1599970679624.jpeg
WS-15 codename Emei.

Speaking of the development of aero engines, the biggest gap between China and the United States was in the research and development model.
The development of aero engines in China is based on aircraft first and then engines. Engine development usually starts after the aircraft model is determined; while in the United States, engines are first developed after aircraft. When developing aircraft, there are already options available. engine.

It can be said that the development model of the United States is in line with the law of aeroengine development. This is because the technical difficulty of aeroengine development is much higher than that of aircraft, and the development time period is much longer than that of aircraft.
Two different R&D models have completely different consequences. Our country often falls into desperation because of the dismantling of aircraft models, and the engine eventually fails. In contrast, the American model is much better. Even if one or two aircraft models are dismantled, the development of engines cannot be stopped. Over time, it will naturally become a powerful engine country. .

Fortunately, the relevant departments of our country have recognized this importance. From the original research and development of aero engines as an important accessory part of aircraft, the importance of aero engines is on par with aircraft, and even It's even higher. To this end, the aero engine department has been independent from the aviation department, and a major special project "Aero Engine and Gas Turbine" has been set up to allocate a huge amount of money for research. Therefore, we have reason to be more optimistic about the future development of my country's aviation engines.

As you all know, WS-15, also called "Emei", is the standard engine of China's stealth fighter J-20. The first public report by official media was in 2017, on the evening of May 25th. The broadcast of CCTV "House of Craftsman" revealed that China's J-20 has been equipped with domestically-made engines, and at the end of the program, it said that from the third-generation mature engine "Taihang" series, it has developed by leaps and bounds to the fifth-generation "Emei" series. "The engine has amazed the world.
CCTV even used the words "wow the world amazed", which shows that the performance of WS-15 is indeed extraordinary.
In fact, the fifth-generation "Emei" engine mentioned in this CCTV report should be the fourth generation, that is, the F119 and F135 engines developed by Pratt & Whitney, both belong to the fourth generation; and the United States before F110, Russian AL-31, and China WS-10 belong to the third generation.

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Regarding the performance of my country's WS-15 and American F119 and F135 engines, military expert Song Xinzhi once drew a table.
From the data in the above table, the afterburner thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio of WS-15 are already at the same level as the mass production model of F119 and the prototype of F135, but it is the same as the improved model of F119 and mass production of F135. There is still a gap.

The ratio of military thrust to afterburner thrust of F119 is about 0.67, the corresponding ratio of F135 is between 0.6-0.64, and the ratio of WS-15 is between 0.57-0.64. It seems to be equipped with WS-15 J- 20 fighters, super patrol capabilities may not be better than F-22 and F-35. In fact, because the J-20 is slender and adopts a duck layout, the aerodynamic characteristics of the transonic resistance are smaller, and the supersonic cruise lift-to-drag ratio is higher. According to the J-20 pilot's feedback, the supersonic flight characteristics of the fighter plane are very good, largely due to the excellent aerodynamic design of the J-20.

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Looking at the bypass ratios of the three aviation engines again, the bypass ratio of F135 is more than double that of F119 and WS-15. This reflects that the F135's outer duct has a larger flow rate and a larger aircraft diameter. The advantage is that it is more fuel-efficient. The disadvantage is that the resistance is greater and the high-altitude thrust drops more. It is not good for achieving supersonic cruise and high maneuverability. From this point of view, F-35 is more suitable for use as an attack aircraft, and is not suitable for air control fighters.

Finally, let's look at the temperature before the turbine. The temperature before the turbine is the first process of the aero engine. An important indicator of the degree of temperature, under the premise of the same design level of the aero-engine turbine and fan, every time the temperature in front of the turbine increases by 100°K, the thrust increases by 15%. It can be seen that the temperature before the turbine has a great relationship with the engine thrust.

The temperature in front of the turbine of F119 aeroengine reached 1977K. It is estimated that the temperature in front of the turbine of F135 aeroengine is at the same level. The temperature before the turbine of the WS-15 is about 1850-1925K, which is close to the level of the two fourth-generation aircraft in the United States, but it is about 50-100K lower. This shows that the fourth-generation American aviation engine has higher thermal efficiency, better heat-resistant materials, and more advanced heat dissipation treatment for thermal components. Although the temperature in front of the turbine of WS-15 has been greatly improved, it still has a gap with the most advanced level, which shows that we will continue to work hard in heat-resistant materials and heat dissipation technology.

However, the F119 also achieved a maximum thrust of 17.4 tons in three stages. At the beginning, its test thrust was only 14.5 tons; in the second stage, it was relaxed to 15.6 tons; and finally it reached 17.4 tons. That is, continuously increase the maximum temperature before the turbine to achieve the purpose of increasing the push. However, due to the later development time of WS15, more mature powder turbine disk and single crystal blade technology are used. Especially the 65,000-ton mold section equipment ranks first in the world. Therefore, its turbine discs and blades can withstand higher temperatures for a long time. The first batch of afterburners with a small amount of off-line has reached 16.2 tons of thrust, exceeding the level of the second batch of F119 engines. Now the fourth batch may be off-line and installed for test flight, and it has been in line with the F119 increased version with about 18 tons of thrust. After the J-20 is installed in batches, it is bound to reach its peak!

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That is to say, the performance of the subsequent batches of WS15 has begun to match that of the F119 in the United States. Besides, with the rapid development of new technologies today, it is entirely possible for us to overtake on corners in the future. So, finally, a new technology in our country, plasma flow control, is listed as one of the 10 cutting-edge aviation technologies by the American Academy of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

According to Li Yinghong, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, my country has made great progress in the field of plasma flow control. For aero engines, plasma flow control can prevent the most deadly surge in order to prevent the engine from stopping in the air. In fact, plasma flow control has long been developed and applied by some aviation powers, but the main problem is that it can only work at low speeds, not high-speed flow fields. Because it produces too little disturbance to the flow field, it is effective at low speeds. At high speeds, due to the relatively large momentum, the excitation disturbance is submerged and cannot interfere with the flow field.

For this reason, my country has established a special project to solve how plasma flow control works in high-speed flow fields. Finally, a discharge method that produces effective excitation in a high-speed flow field is developed. The basic principle is pulse discharge, which produces strong disturbances in a short period of time, and locally produces strong shock waves, that is, shock wave excitation, but because it is pulsed, the average power consumption is not very large, so the plasma flow is controlled from a low speed. Achieved high speed. Controlling the flow field through flow control can not only expand the stability margin of the engine, but also improve the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft.

Of course, so far, the plasma flow control of aircraft and engines is still in the laboratory stage, which is still far from actual use. However, we have reason to believe that my country will definitely make greater breakthroughs in this field.
Compared with traditional aero engine technology, in the field of plasma flow control, my country and the world's aviation powers started almost at the same time, there is no gap, and we have the advantage of leading the way. My country's future aero engine is worth looking forward to!
 

Errys

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2020-09-12

However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources.

Although
said that in the past, we faced the dilemma of being stuck in many fields, and development was greatly restricted, but this will not easily knock down our country’s scientific researchers. After decades of hard work, we finally broke through the restrictions. After catching up and even surpassing, even the much criticized space engine has made new progress.

01. In order to realize hypersonic fighters, what do you need?
It is well known that all kinds of advanced equipment are indispensable in order to increase national strength. Up to now, there are only a few countries that can truly master the R&D technology of the fifth-generation aircraft, let alone Hypersonic weapons are now available, and the only country that has completed equipping the army is Russia. Just imagine how difficult it is. However, including China and the United States and some powerful countries, they still regard hypersonic weapons as important power weapons, and have invested a lot of human and financial resources. We take the hypersonic fighter as an example. If we want to start development, we must break through the source power barrier. It is the "ultra-high-speed super-combustion ramjet engine."

02. my country has overcome the key problems in one fell swoop
For this reason, my country has begun to invest a lot of resources to develop this technology, and now has made new progress. It is important to know that when a fighter plane is climbing at a high altitude, it needs a lot of power from the engine. Therefore, countries will use an oxidant to complete it. The scramjet is different. It can obtain oxygen from the air by itself, thereby providing Fighters provide a steady stream of power, which not only saves weight, but also generates more powerful thrust than before, even four times higher than the rocket.

The relevant person in charge of the project revealed that my country’s scramjet has successfully completed the hydrogen-oxygen fuel propulsion experiment and overcomes the key technical problems in one fell swoop, that is, hydrogen fuel can be completed and 3000 meters per second in one hundredth of an eye. The difficulty of the intersection of air can be described as the firewood in a tornado. The realization of this technology not only means that my country's high-energy pulsed wind tunnel can be put into use from now on, to provide support for the future development of aircraft, but also to truly achieve the grand goal of flying to the world in one hour. This hydrogen-oxygen fuel that can reach a flight speed of Mach 10 Propellers provide technical conditions for my country's research and development of ultra-high-speed scramjets. Perhaps the future hypersonic fighters will no longer be a dream.

03. American experts frankly said: We are already behind
Facing my country’s breakthroughs in scramjet engines, American experts admitted frankly: The United States is indeed one step behind. Once China completes the installation in the future, it will strengthen the military's combat power to a certain extent. Whether it is strike or reconnaissance capabilities, disruptive changes will occur. It can be said that hypersonic aircraft is a major trend in future development, and it is the direction that all countries will work towards. As long as the speed exceeds Mach 10, it can achieve any goal of hitting the world in one hour.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
From Henri K blog a milestone is reached Northwest poly Univ is the primer aeronautic school in China

Northwestern Polytechnical University (also known as NPU or NWPU;
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: 西北工业大学;
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NPU specializes in education and research in the fields of aeronautical, astronautical and marine engineering. As of 2012, NPU had 13,736 graduate students (3,063 full-time doctorate candidates, 7,087 master candidates, 3,586 professional degree candidates) and 14,395 undergraduate students.


An RBCC engine with #scramjet - co-developed by CALT, AALPT and NWPU - successfully completed its maiden flight in the Gobi Desert. The machine could be recovered and it is intact. According to its manufacturer, the data shows that the engine performed better than expected.

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stannislas

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From Henri K blog a milestone is reached Northwest poly Univ is the primer aeronautic school in China

Northwestern Polytechnical University (also known as NPU or NWPU;
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: 西北工业大学;
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. It is a Chinese Ministry of Education Class A
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and Project 211.
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NPU specializes in education and research in the fields of aeronautical, astronautical and marine engineering. As of 2012, NPU had 13,736 graduate students (3,063 full-time doctorate candidates, 7,087 master candidates, 3,586 professional degree candidates) and 14,395 undergraduate students.


An RBCC engine with #scramjet - co-developed by CALT, AALPT and NWPU - successfully completed its maiden flight in the Gobi Desert. The machine could be recovered and it is intact. According to its manufacturer, the data shows that the engine performed better than expected.

View attachment 63786
lol. what the picture is about? the NWPU?
 

Errys

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2020-09-27 15:48:08

The major countries in the world are all developing "combined engines" and want to combine different types of engines. The characteristic of this engine is that it can adapt to the needs of various airspaces, and it can fly at low altitudes, fly at high altitudes, and even fly in space. Its application range is very broad. According to the latest information, there is good news from China's Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute. The domestically-made "combined engine" developed by the institute has successfully passed the test and achieved excellent results.

It is understood that during the test, the “combined engine” of Xi’an Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute completed a 600-second test run, which set a new record in history. You should know that the same type of products tested in the United States have only been tested for 200 seconds. This means that China has come to the front of the United States in the field of "combined engines". According to a domestic media report on September 26, the "combined engine" developed by Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute also has three power modes, which combine turbojet engine technology, super combustion engine technology, and rocket engine technology. The meaning of the times.

Conventional "combined engines" generally only use two engine technologies, because it is easier to study. For example, the "combined engine" developed in the United States uses a combination of a turbofan engine and a turbojet engine, which allows the engine to perform better conversion between subsonic and supersonic speeds. Compared with China's "combined engine", the American "combined engine" is undoubtedly much simpler.

The "combined engine" developed by China is actually more like a future technology product, which will be mainly applied to aerospace aircraft. Everyone knows that conventional turbojet engines and turbofan engines can only fly at an altitude of 25 to 30 kilometers. The transcendent ramjet is mainly flying at altitudes of 50 kilometers to 60 kilometers. Once the "near space" (100 kilometers) is exceeded, turbojet engines, turbofan engines, and transcendent ramjet engines have to stop and cannot continue to fly, because these three engines require oxygen during flight, and space There is no oxygen.

If you want to continue flying in space, you have to use a rocket engine. The "combined engine" developed by China combines turbojet engine technology, super combustion engine technology, and rocket engine technology, which means it can be from the ground Fly all the way to space, soar freely in the atmosphere and space. In today's world, there is no engine that can achieve this. The "combined engine" developed by China can be said to have created a historical precedent.


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Xi'an Aerospace Propulsion Institute of CASC conducted a successful flight test of TRRE engine...jpg



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