Chinese Engine Development

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
what that means. i don't understand. can you please elaborate more
JV was the wrong word, I should have used partners.

CJ-1000 program involves many western companies in its components just like C-919. MTU, AVIO for example. Whether it is necessary and cost effective or when to replace all foreign involvement, there is the risk.

Here is a summary
WS-20/AEF-1300, 100% domestic
CJ-1000A, Chinese owned IP, many foreign subcontractors.
LEAP-1C, pure import.
 
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sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member
CJ-1000 program involves many western companies in its components. MTU, AVIO for example. Just like C-919 itself having lots of foreign partners. Whether it is necessary and cost effective or when to replace all foreign involvement, there is the risk.
nope.

this is the biggest misconception regarding CJ-1000A components. this news appeared in 2011-12, they were planning to collaborate with western firms for core components but project didn't materialized. i tell you the history and you will understand.

CJ-1000 name appeared = 2009

CJ-1000 team planning to collaborate with western firms for components = 2011-12

but deal didn't go through. after 4 years of planning and research, COMAC found AECC in 2016 and engine project officially approved in 2017. core machine ignited and first porotype appeared in 2018. all major components produced by Chinese firms/institutes.

the time period between 2012-2018 was basically for time given to major Chinese suppliers. compressor , combustion chamber , turbine each and every major component produced in mainland by Chinese origin firms and some universities involved too

46 major suppliers are involved in CJ-1000 engine and all are based in mainland. same suppliers are providing the parts to CJ-2000 engine.

i know the name of each and every firm/institute and even the names of team leader LOOL. but can't post the details. sorry
 
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weig2000

Captain
E class heavy duty Gas turbine localization = 100%

F class heavy duty Gas turbine localization = 100%

H class heavy duty gas turbine is a real deal and only 3 countries masters in this technology. USA , Germany and Japan.

Dongfang Steam Turbine recently announced first H class heavy duty gas turbine 'M701J' being made in mainland a milestone but localization still at 70%. some core hot parts are imported. by 2024 China will conquer H class heavy duty gas turbine as well.

China become the only 4th country to produce H class heavy duty gas turbine with some hot parts imported. still a huge leap

Curiously, I couldn't find the rated power output for M701J.

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are some definitions/examples of different classes of HDGT:

Historically, gas turbine frame types were defined by output, firing temperatures and pressure ratio. As advances were made in materials and cooling technologies, gas turbines were able to fire hotter, resulting in better efficiencies and higher outputs. Design changes in the compressor and turbine section were commonly needed, and thus when a manufacturer made improvements significant enough to increase output and efficiency, a new turbine class was born. Although at times the nomenclature became murkier, as evidenced by technologies called “F-class” that featured firing temperature, output, efficiency, and design in line with advanced technology, today’s HDGT classes can be broadly categorized into three areas based on OEM gas turbine product names, size, and efficiency. Focusing on size, D- and E- class engines are typically in the 75 – 110 MW range. Products include GE’s 7E.03, Siemens SGT6-2000E, and Mitsubishi Hitachi’s H-100. F-class turbines are typically in the 170-230 MW range. Products include GE’s 7F.03-.05 models, Siemen’s SGT6-5000F, and Mitsubishi Hitachi’s M501F. Lastly, the advanced class turbines (G-, H-, and J- frames) are typically in the 275 – 350 MW range. These include Mitsubishi Hitachi’s M501J and M501G machines, Siemens SGT6-8000H, and GE’s 7HA.01 and .02 models.

I'm frankly bit surprised by the progress that China has made in HDGT. I thought the latest was the 50MW F-class, but here we're already at J-class, even if they still have to import hot components.
 

weig2000

Captain
This was 2016 news,Dongfang signed tech transfer agreement with Mitsubishi,for F class M701F5 and H class M701J

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So it took Dongfang 8 years to digest and localize the technology. Don't know the domestic rate of this M701J,but since the news didn't mention “100% domestic”,I'd assume it's not 100% domestic.

OK, now it seems that M701J is really a licensed production of Mitsubishi gas turbine, not indigenous technology. It's likely similar to the MTU diesel engine licensed production from Germany.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Natural gas forms has a very small share of China's power mix, so gas turbine generators are more of a vanity project than something truly strategically significant like semiconductors. This will change as China imports more gas from Russia in the coming years and displaces coal, but I expect Chinese turbine technology to improve at a sufficient pace that it's not the limiting factor.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
Curiously, I couldn't find the rated power output for M701J.

According to news from Dongfang official website,M701J has single-cycle output power 445 MW,combined cycle output power 650MW

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M701F5和J型燃机是三菱日立(MHPS)的最新技术机型,其性能在同类型机组中处于领先水平。此次引进的M701F5和J型燃机分别覆盖不同的功率等级,三菱日立将最新高效燃气轮机设计技术同成熟结构相结合,升级和改进推出了单循环输出功率接近360 MW的M701F5和单循环输出功率为445 MW的M701J燃气轮机, 两种燃机的联合循环(1GT+1ST)出力分别达到525MW和650MW

M701F5 and J-type gas turbines are the latest technology models of Mitsubishi Hitachi (MHPS), and their performance is at the leading level among similar units. The M701F5 and J-type gas turbines introduced this time cover different power levels. Mitsubishi Hitachi combined the latest high-efficiency gas turbine design technology with mature structures, upgraded and improved the M701F5 with a single-cycle output power close to 360 MW and single-cycle output power For the 445 MW M701J gas turbine, the output of the combined cycle (1GT+1ST) of the two gas turbines reaches 525MW and 650MW respectively.
 

weig2000

Captain
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about ws-10a, ws-10b and ws-10c thrust estimation.

Very interesting. The author appears to have been tracking the development of WS-10 for a long time.

I posted a year ago before the Zhuhai Airshow 2020 (held in 2021 though) that WS-10C thrust is at 155 kN, close to the original target for WS-15, although currently WS-15 itself had achieved thrust level of over 18t. That was from a different source. A couple of more respected members questioned this thrust level, believing that 144 kN is more likely.

This article suggests that WS-10B's thrust to be 144 kN while that of WS-10C is much higher, albeit at the cost of shorter engine life. So it's still likely that WS-10C has a thrust of 155 kN.

Of course, all these are speculative, backed-up by some indirect evidence and reasoning.
 
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