Chinese Engine Development


gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
The CJ-1000A uses foreign parts guys. If China really gets isolated it has to rely on the WS-20.

I thought the CR929 is targeted for introduction 2028-29?

Who knows, the CJ-1000A might even eventually replace the WS-20 in the Y-20.
But its introduction date has been severely pushed back. This makes relying on that engine for future planning a fool's errand I think.
If it uses foreign parts that only compounds the problem as this would probably restrict its use on military aircraft.

Eh, do you really believe the CR929 estimated entry into service date? For what it's worth the Russians have conducted wind tunnel testing of the airframe, and are presently doing subscale component tests for the PD-35 engine using the PD-14 as a basis. The Russians are also currently building an engine test facility which will be able to test large scale engines like the PD-35 which should be ready in a year or two. Having recently built a modern engine test facility which will enable them to ramp up PD-14 engine tests as that is supposed to ramp up to mass production. China has built a center for the CR929 in Shanghai complete with building and everything. Supposedly the Russians are working on a similar site in Moscow. But just look at things. The Russians are still studying where they would build a factory for the wings. Because of the size of the wings they have basically given up on air transportation of them and will seemingly rely on sea transport. So the factory that would produce the wings needs to be near the ocean for sea transport, preferably on the Far East, for final integration in China. One of the places being studied to place the factory is Vladivostok. But the location isn't decided and construction on the plant hasn't started yet. There is no existing aircraft industry there. So you would need to build the facilities and move staff there. I doubt it will be done quickly. Some people might be willing to move though since a lot of Russian civilian aircraft manufacturing is in Siberia, just not near the coast. Most of the production of the wings is also supposed to be automated so they shouldn't need that many specialists. UAC is also in the middle of a major reorganization and that might delay things. They are merging the research and development centers for Sukhoi and MiG. Presumably also for the transporter business but the way they will do it is even more murky than for the military fighter side.

Do you think the partners for the CR929 can do this plane in 7-8 years? I doubt it. Well, only if it is to be done as a photo op similar to the Boeing "Dreamliner" launch where they paraded an empty shell. I doubt a flying prototype will be ready let alone they would finish the testing and be delivering it to customers.
 
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Annihilation98

New Member
Registered Member
The CJ-1000A uses foreign parts guys. If China really gets isolated it has to rely on the WS-20.
This is the problem of the Chinese engineer. They are too afraid to take a risk and don't believe in their own capability. Always depends on western tech. Why not just put WS-20 engine in C919 and do more testing. DON'T be afraid of failure because USA also start with failure too. China government need to ban airbus and Boeing to bring more pressure to engineer. Hard work and pressure is needed for success. Desperate Times Call for Desperate Measures.
 
This is the problem of the Chinese engineer. They are too afraid to take a risk and don't believe in their own capability. Always depends on western tech.
There is no such problem with Chinese engineers. The CJ-1000 engine project was initiated in a time of international supply chains. Western companies have at least as much Chinese input in their products than vice-versa. Other than drawing an incorrect conclusion from it, your example is also cherry-picked. Whenever China needs to go it alone, China builds machines of every complexity with just Chinese input. This one civilian engine was not for reasons that are entirely unrelated to the ones you surmised however, I would bet that if pushed, China can replace all the foreign components in that engine in record time just as it suddenly goes from zero to warp speed when pushed in the lithography field.
Why not just put WS-20 engine in C919 and do more testing.
I'm not sure but I think that the WS-20 is a military solution because the base design is not cutting-edge enough to be market-competitive.
DON'T be afraid of failure because USA also start with failure too. China government need to ban airbus and Boeing to bring more pressure to engineer. Hard work and pressure is needed for success. Desperate Times Call for Desperate Measures.
Chinese technological development is the fastest in the world. It doesn't need nobodies on the internet telling it anything about its philosophy or what to do with foreign competitors.
 

voyager1

Senior Member
Registered Member
Hard work and pressure is needed for success.
I agree with this. It seems that there is still not enough pressure and that why they move so slow.

Extreme pressure is urgently needed. IMO, if the recent humilations from the US sanctions and threats is still not enough then I really dont know what will convince them that they have to hit the ground running ASAP

Chinese technological development is the fastest in the world. It doesn't need nobodies on the internet telling it anything about its philosophy or what to do with foreign competitors.
Agreed but they still dropped the ball on commercial engines. They need to quickly build indigenous avation equipment.

We have already seen the threat with the "Semiconductor Alliance" that the US is pushing along with Japan, Germany(EU) and invited S.Korea to deny China's chip development.

I would bet that in this year (if not already happening) the avation cartel Boeing/Airbus (US/EU) will do the same thing for the aviation industry
 
Agreed but they still dropped the ball on commercial engines. They need to quickly build indigenous avation equipment.
What is dropping the ball? How many countries in the world can make commercial engines? How far behind is China from the elite few? China is probably right where it is using foreign components but can switch to domestic in a relatively short time when needed. Do you know how hard it is to be where that is? To me, dropping the ball would be to have no way to power your planes if foreign engines are cut off and the project would be dead because a solution would not be within the foreseeable future. Ideally, China would have just sprouted a domestic manufacturer that is globally competitive without any hostilities but there is a big big gap between what is ideal and what is dropping the ball. We have to remember that China is a very new technological power and the vast majority of its gains are recent; it hasn't been sitting on its hands for decades.
We have already seen the threat with the "Semiconductor Alliance" that the US is pushing along with Japan, Germany(EU) and invited S.Korea to deny China's chip development.

I would bet that in this year (if not already happening) the avation cartel Boeing/Airbus (US/EU) will do the same thing for the aviation industry
I welcome it very much. If they are stupid enough to make that mistake (and I have a feeling that the EU is NOT), that will give China the final push to become a global competitor at commercial jet engines.
 
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gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
I think you guys are expecting too much from China's industrial base at that juncture or even this one.

The Chinese transport aircraft industry was basically non-existent. Except for some clones of small or middling 1960s or older Soviet aircraft. They started providing outsourced work of parts for Western aircraft builders. Now they were doing joint aircraft development with foreign partners. This is not dumb. It reduces the risk the project will fail completely because of lack of domain expertise. Perhaps some components will need to be made native later. But the fact the development was more incremental and expertise was built up gradually was done for a reason. In the end this will save time and make a better product.

China was pursuing a similar model to the one used for the high speed train development. That worked well and there is little reason to think it won't this time either. There might be some bumps along the way and sanctions but it will get done.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
This is the problem of the Chinese engineer. They are too afraid to take a risk and don't believe in their own capability. Always depends on western tech. Why not just put WS-20 engine in C919 and do more testing. DON'T be afraid of failure because USA also start with failure too. China government need to ban airbus and Boeing to bring more pressure to engineer. Hard work and pressure is needed for success. Desperate Times Call for Desperate Measures.
I don't think that is the problem. Based on personal experience in machine design, you cannot designed every single component for prototype. It is just time consuming and not practical. You concentrate on designing the critical and difficult part first and left the not so critical part latter. But built that prototype first and get the performance data or "proof of concept" first See if it worked and what performance data can you get. Does it meet design spec? And worry latter about not so critical component!

The japanese did the same thing when they built their Turbo jet they use Sandvik designed double spooled shaft. Not only that they import the production machine and their engineering support. Japan can do that but not China
 
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Orthan

Junior Member
Can you please continue this currently strictly engine-related discussion in the correct thread!

It seems to me that you also participated on this:

Calm down ... with the WS-20 the C919 will surely be able to fly but it takes times, money and even more with the WS-20 it won't reach its performance parameters since it is an older generation engine. As such, to be competitive, they need to wait for the CJ1000A
 

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