Chinese Engine Development


Xsizor

Senior Member
Registered Member
I dont think that anyone here knows for certain if WS-15 has been test-flighted or not. But people here keep saying that it must have been already tested-flighted. Based on what?
Besides the rumor of WS-15 testing on J-11,

  • On being questioned about it, a senior military leader threw a counter question at the reporter "How do you know it has not been tested yet?". I can't seem to remember the name but I'm fairly certain it's about WS-15 on J-20.

  • There was an Alert5 piece on a component supplier stating in an annual release of 2019 on very low component supply numbers (4-8) over the coming years.

  • Then this piece stating that the engine has passed final design verification.

These are all I know about WS-15.
From these, I drew the conclusion that WS-15 has completed final design verification and would've probably been tested already.

What they are dealing with would be prepping up for Mass production that'd throw its own set of challenges.
 

Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Besides the rumor of WS-15 testing on J-11,

  • On being questioned about it, a senior military leader threw a counter question at the reporter "How do you know it has not been tested yet?". I can't seem to remember the name but I'm fairly certain it's about WS-15 on J-20.

I believe that was regarding TVC for J-20, and was concluded to likely refer to a TVC variant of WS-10 rather than WS-15. That was in 2018 at Zhuhai.


I dont think that anyone here knows for certain if WS-15 has been test-flighted or not. But people here keep saying that it must have been already tested-flighted. Based on what?

The rumour about WS-15 having been flight tested was from a couple of years ago from Shi Lao, but obviously everyone treats any rumours about WS-15 with great caution even if they are considered to be quite credible.

The people who speak of it as if it is definitively confirmed or "must have been" already flight tested are overreaching a bit, because at the end of the day we don't have the evidence to make that kind of definitive claim.
But at the same time, for the purposes of discussion and trying to project things, it's far from unreasonable to say it probably has been test flown, until we have more definitive evidence (which may be in retrospect).
 

voyager1

Junior Member
Registered Member
Breaking!
Motor Sich from Ukraine is nationalised

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Ukraine is set to nationalise Motor Sich, one of the world’s top makers of engines for cargo aircraft and helicopters, to prevent a long-running Chinese takeover attempt that has been strongly opposed by the US.
Skyrizon is actively seeking to acquire intellectual property and technology to advance key military capabilities that threaten US national security, including the capability to develop, produce, or maintain military items, such as aircraft engines, satellites, and cruise missiles.

Wow this is big news. All this investment gone.
Refunds?
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Ukrainians just commenced in combat against the Russians and China is a quasi-ally, no surprise there. I doubt they’ll pay anything.
Ukraine is preparing to initiate military action in the Donbass and Crimea. With Biden in office, establishment foreign policies are continuing.

Conflict in the region is likely to flair up again. Ukraine announced its strategy to retake Crimea.

Internal consolidation is starting with purging of pro Russia officials.
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This time around Ukranian is better armed and more prepared for conflict with Donbass rebels. Russia will likely step in once Ukrainian forces gets the upper hand. NATO will condem Russia for interference with new rounds of sanctions and military maneuvers put in place to pressure Russia to back off from Donbass and withdraw from Crimea. Pressure of international partners is stated as part of Ukarine's strategy. China will likely not participate in sanctioning Russia. Knowing this Ukraine will reduce partnerships with non-NATO aligned nations but trade will likely still continue as usual.
 

gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
Yeah they have also purged the main opposition party in Ukraine which seeks to make Ukraine a neutral country.

If Ukraine attempt to invade Crimea perhaps Russia will grab some more of that sweet Black Sea coastline.
With luck they'll leave Ukraine with the bits close to Poland. Perhaps Lviv can then become Ukraine's capital.

I think Chinese investors in Motor Sich have a fair chance to get their investment back by going to an international tribunal. In the meantime I think China should sanction Ukraine and rip the contract to buy Al-222 engines.
 

ougoah

Major
Registered Member
Can someone honestly sum up what gains there are with a Motor Sich purchase? Apart from increased and safer supply chains.

WS-10 has been mature for years and been operating for over 10 years now. Design long over and upgrades wrt digital controls plumbing etc are more design engineering problems than manufacturing and material science ones. Upgrades to material included as China's domestic engine industry improves over time.

WS-15 design (even the second clean sheet one) is done. Manufacturing and final phases are being worked out.

CJ-1000 and WS-20 designs are done and even test flights performed. Maybe there are improvements to be gained with Ukrainian engine manufacturing tech and know how but they would be pretty minor since the no-MS gain versions have been flying for years already.

China's already done the following that are all related to the traditional weak aspects of Chinese engine industry - materials and processes.

Single crystal blades

Blades that can withstand operation stresses temp etc

Hollow blades tech

Laser drilling tech

Exotic alloys... I think here China even has more than Ukraine and Russia iirc. Even the leaked "under the belt" exotic alloys basically include the full set.

So apart from helicopter engines which China has not devoted as much effort in catching up and is likely still very far behind the best, what else is there to gain? Factory processes? Machinery? Tooling?

If we're talking about China gaining full spectrum access through partial ownership of an organisation like GE or P&W or RR, then yes, totally so much to learn and gain but Motor Sich deals mostly with the manufacturing side (yes this is the harder part) and isn't exactly world leading like those western organisations. Russia has reorganised this sector and with or without French partnership projects, they will have much more resources to regain their edge in the future. While the western players are well ahead now, this is actually an area that can easily be overcome with time and resources spent. The only issue is that those western players have a massive time gap and will likely maintain that lead for a while because they have not been slowing down at all or don't plan to either. Luckily for China, catch up is a quicker and easier thing to do than break through.
 
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ansy1968

Captain
Registered Member
Yeah they have also purged the main opposition party in Ukraine which seeks to make Ukraine a neutral country.

If Ukraine attempt to invade Crimea perhaps Russia will grab some more of that sweet Black Sea coastline.
With luck they'll leave Ukraine with the bits close to Poland. Perhaps Lviv can then become Ukraine's capital.

I think Chinese investors in Motor Sich have a fair chance to get their investment back by going to an international tribunal. In the meantime I think China should sanction Ukraine and rip the contract to buy Al-222 engines.
@gelgoog Do you think that Ukraine had sold the tech blueprint and knowhow years ago? the Chinese are not dumb to rely on foreigners especially on a major jet trainer program like the JL10.
 

ougoah

Major
Registered Member
@gelgoog Do you think that Ukraine had sold the tech blueprint and knowhow years ago? the Chinese are not dumb to rely on foreigners especially on a major jet trainer program like the JL10.

In engineering of any practice (and especially true for high tech and complex things) blueprints themselves are worth very little. They are the executive summary of the technology world and honestly absolutely nothing much more... useful for certain parts but only with all the design/test phase work done and understood by the supply chain. Good for references and records.

They make up such a small part of the entire project. Blueprints also DO NOT reveal many aspects of design. They certainly don't give much if any insight into materials, material fabrication and more importantly the overall steps, timing, methodology, procedural checks/tests, equipment used, tools, machinery etc that are behind making something real. What temperature to set the autoclave? What density within a certain chamber? What gases to apply and their concentrations for this and that? Few factors out of hundreds if not thousands. To sell or supply all the above in a way that makes it possible for another party to execute and implement, there would be 1000 more things on top of blueprints that naive people like to think is the be all end all of advanced technologies. You could give the best minds and organisations the blueprint of an advanced alien integrated circuit board and we wouldn't be able to reproduce it without many more peripheral breakthroughs and probably decades if not many centuries.

China can still purchase the originally intended low thrust Ukrainian JL-10 engine can they not?

Preventing Chinese state from purchasing Motor Sich doesn't mean preventing China from purchasing the engines off the shelf right?

The engine itself is nothing spectacular or difficult but it does take time and resources to develop. If China cannot realistically afford to wait years for domestic industry to develop a suitable engine for the JL-10 trainer, they can purchase a suitable engine from Russia (that exists btw already off the shelf) if Motor Sich won't even sell their product?
 
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