Chinese Engine Development

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
"Copying failed": on the causes of China's problems with aircraft engines

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Looks like the Russians are becoming more and more insecure knowing that the latest WS-10 variant is already on par with the 117S and the WS-15 will likely exceed the performance of the Izd-30 once it becomes operational. Keep these salty articles going Russia ... they're the best source of validation for the Chinese gas turbine industry!
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Looks like the Russians are becoming more and more insecure knowing that the latest WS-10 variant is already on par with the 117S and the WS-15 will likely exceed the performance of the Izd-30 once it becomes operational. Keep these salty articles going Russia ... they're the best source of validation for the Chinese gas turbine industry!

I don't mean to defend this article, which is thin on facts and gratuitously harsh, but a response in the same tendentious vein is unhelpful.

Where's the evidence? It's possible to assemble a pretty good picture of what Izd.30 is probably going to be like by know, and it's quite impressive. What is there that would suggest WS-15 is better? What little info I've found over the years was pretty unreliable and even taken at face value did not match the likely specs of Izd.30. And there is more to an engine like the Izd.117S than sheer thrust - when the up-rated WS-10 versions first appeared, the TBO and life figures bandied about were about half of what the 117S provides. That's no minor difference, considering their claimed turbine inlet temperatures are virtually identical (so the Russians aren't running it deliberately cool to conserve life).

And at any rate, Izd.117S has been in series production for almost 10 years by now - it's hardly representative of the bleeding edge in Russian engine technology any longer.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Directly? Nothing. But then again, when has anything about Chinese military technology ever been clear? Indirectly, however, the sheer scale of resources, the money and personnel China can dedicate to its engine projects is something Russia can never hope to match.
There’s a good chance the izd. 30 is a more advanced design than the WS-15. Even if we assume iterative redesigns of the WS-15 throughout development it will more or less reflect China’s understanding of gas turbines from up to a decade back. Russia has been capable of designing at that level for far longer, and the izd.30 is supposed to be quite ambitious. My guess is true parity will probably be within range for the next generation of engines. China’s still maturing it’s design knowledge with this one.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Russia has been capable of designing at that level for far longer, and the izd.30 is supposed to be quite ambitious.
Perhaps, but ambitious projects with limited resources have a tendency to be humbled. Anyway, there's no way of knowing until both engines are in service (and even then much of their parameters will still be a secret) - this is a pointless discussion started by tidalwave's trolling and we shouldn't continue it further.
My guess is true parity will probably be within range for the next generation of engines. China’s still maturing it’s design knowledge with this one.
True parity will certainly come with the next generation of engines, but it won't be parity with Russia.

@Bltizo, I think tidalwave's post here is a prime example of bringing down the quality of this thread, probably the most consequential of the flagship threads. Maybe it and everything since should be flushed.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Perhaps, but ambitious projects with limited resources have a tendency to be humbled. Anyway, there's no way of knowing until both engines are in service (and even then much of their parameters will still be a secret) - this is a pointless discussion started by tidalwave's trolling and we shouldn't continue it further.

True parity will certainly come with the next generation of engines, but it won't be parity with Russia.

Russia’s engine design capabilities are in line with the US’s and Europe’s.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Russia’s engine design capabilities are in line with the US’s and Europe’s.
Where does Russia source its advanced technology for inspection, fabrication etc from? Isn't Russia under sanctions? So are you saying that Russian companies have managed to keep up in comprehensive technological parity even though it's been cut off from the global network?
Izdeliye 30 is more intriguing than WS-15.

(From what I can see from documentaries and such) Europe's and US's facilities for manufacturing engines are top notch. I've never found such glizz and shine in Russian ones. Or Chinese ones for that matter.

No, Russia isn't upto par with US technology.
I'm intrigued by Izdeliye 30. It's specs are top notch but if it delivers then that means Russia has some Aladdin Magic lamp to make stuff outta thin air. It also mean that all the Trillion dollars spent by US, the combined experience of Civilian - Military engine makers of US as well as its huge pool of Human resources are just a shoddy lie.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Russia’s engine design capabilities are in line with the US’s and Europe’s.

Not so much these days. Russia's programs have slowed and stopped through the Soviet collapse and funding remains incomparable to American, British, and French programs. Even if the Russians still have a great industrial, tooling, and scientific base for engineering and building competitive modern turbofans, I don't think they can compare too favourably against US, UK, and France in either military or commercial turbofans.

China's may not have as much collective experience or industrial base that's gone through the same R&D stages the others have, but it has enjoyed immense funding for decades. Even with decades of experience producing parts and licensed units and then domesticated un-licensed units, it's clear that short cuts don't quite exist and even sole projects like WS-10 have taken a considerable effort from the nation's turbofan developers just to master. Something the Americans have done since the F110, arguably even the F100 as a more fitting contextual equivalent.

Russia is still impressive though with all the hindrance but managed to still modernise the mainstay RD-33 and Al-31 and develop the Izd.30. Losing Ukraine was a big blow since a lot of the turbofan industry was placed there during the Soviet era. China is a junior and barely out of training wheels but at least since a few years ago, the WS-10 has been conquered with 10 years of service onboard J-11 fighters and moving onto J-10.

BTW the WS-10 isn't an Al-31 and though I'm not sure if that was suggested in the topwar article, while the WS-13 surely was an uninteresting but perhaps worthwhile copy of the RD-33 with some more modernised additions, the WS-10 is closer to being based off an American engine since the design of its core was based on a high bypass turbofan. WS-15 is the first Chinese engine developed from the lessons and experiences picked up over the last 5 or so decades of building, copying, and modifying various types of turbofans.
 

LCR34

Junior Member
Registered Member
What is with this wave of new members sharing articles and content from absolutely &*#$ sources? Please stop posting content from Topwar.ru.
What kind of source do you want? Popular mechanics, forbes, the drive, force comparison ok with you? Or should we pull data from the now defunct ausairpower? This is not an academic forum. Are we supposed to only take manufacturer data? sometimes member post some content to create a discussion topic or to seek verification and whats wrong with that? Forum = place for DISCUSSION.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Topwar.ru is basically a troll farm. About as credible or even less than David Axe.
They can only find faults with Chinese tech development and post wrong information about programs and development.
You are better informed not reading it at all. It might be better for other content, don't know, but for Chinese content they are clearly not well informed and simply don't care and just spew misinformation.
 
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