Chinese Engine Development


free_6ix9ine

New Member
Registered Member
Can someone explain why high-bypass turbofans (ie. WS-20, WS-18, CFM Leap) are seemingly harder to develop and produce than low-bypass turbofans like the WS-10?

Don't high by-pass turbofans use the same core as low-bypass turbofans? It shouldn't be too hard to stick a large fan to the WS-10? If the core is the same as the WS-10, why is the WS-20 taking so long to be finished?
 

Orthan

Junior Member
Can someone explain why high-bypass turbofans (ie. WS-20, WS-18, CFM Leap) are seemingly harder to develop and produce than low-bypass turbofans like the WS-10?

Don't high by-pass turbofans use the same core as low-bypass turbofans? It shouldn't be too hard to stick a large fan to the WS-10? If the core is the same as the WS-10, why is the WS-20 taking so long to be finished?
Perhabs things dont work as simple as you think. Aircraft engines are a highly complex technology not only in design but in materials too.

Its no surprising that china has been having a lot of dificulties in developing aircraft engines.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Perhabs things dont work as simple as you think. Aircraft engines are a highly complex technology not only in design but in materials too.

Its no surprising that china has been having a lot of dificulties in developing aircraft engines.
Aero engine take a long time to mature on average 20 to 30 years. China come late very late in the engine engineering Don't forget that Chinese university only reopen in 1980's due to political chaos. Western country has been developing aero engine since WWII and have collaboration effort from all the countries in the western world. Add to that the technical embargo etc make it even harder for China to develop She has to do everything herself with no collaboration with any other country. Unlike Japan or India heck even with all the assistance from Russia, US, French India has yet to produce high thrust engine. So there you go

But the backlog is now in the past China did produce WS 10B for single engine aircraft That show they have the confidence in their WS10B
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
High-bypass engines are typically intended for civilian applications and this moves the goal posts compared to military engines. Reliability, durability and support gain importance relative to raw performance, in addition to fuel efficiency. An engine which keeps grounding the aircraft due to frequent malfunctions or poor spares supply is a serious financial drag on an airline. Not only is it failing to earn money, it increases costs through maintenance man hours and parts. As a result, any deficiency in quality control is exposed mercilessly in this kind of environment.

So long as the difference in fuel burn isn't too big, this question of reliability can even tip the balance between two engine options one way or the other. It's for this exact reason that so far the LEAP-1A has outsold the PW1100G by about 60 to 40, even though the Pratt is unequivocally the more efficient of the two. Granted, the difference is only about 1 or 2 percent, but back when oil prices were lower, the RB.211 was able to outcompete the PW2000 on the 757 despite a much bigger fuel burn disadvantage.

Even when you nail the tricky subject of reliability, poor support can do you in, as the SaM146 on the SSJ100 demonstrates. On wing, it has achieved a 99.9% engine-related dispatch reliability (i.e. only one in a thousand flights is cancelled due to an engine break-down) and an overall (aircraft) dispatch reliability of 99.7%. That's A320/737NG territory, but once the engine comes up for scheduled maintenance or does malfunction once in a while, spares are very hard to come by, keeping it on the ground way too long. So long that Western customers CityJet and Interjet were forced to give up on it.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
WS-20 is an engine for military use. Even so, china is having serious dificulties in getting it into service.
Yup talking from his rear NO CHINA DOES NOT HAVE DIFFICULTIES HERE IS THE LATEST
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Good news for turbofan-18, maybe coming soon
Original Hu Shi Shi YanHu Shi Shi ShiYesterday
A lot of discussions have been made recently on the imitation of the Russian-made D-30KP2 turbofan-18 engine as a recent hot spot for domestic aviation. As the domestically produced large aircraft engine model, it has the lowest technical difficulty, the fastest progress, and the most widely used product. Everyone naturally looks forward to the entry of turbofan-18.

▲ It has been 5 years since the news of the test flight ...
Shi Lao has also recently talked and talked about a lot
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, and some of the early years of turbofan-18 have
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in the WeChat account before Shi Lao . But to be honest, it has been more than 5 years since the first test flight of turbofan 18 on December 6, 2014. There is no official news about the follow-up situation of turbofan-18 except for a series of less auspicious trail news. Now ... until everyone recently turned out of the 420 factory (that is, Chengfa Company), a 60-day decisive battle, and a special labor competition news report.

▲ It's just that the pictures in the news are hung up ...

The report itself is actually quite easy to understand. Although it does not say what "Life Engineering" is, the news is "whole machine production" and "reverse push". Considering that the 420 factory was the main The product is a variety of turbojet-6s, which will no longer be produced after the Qiang-5 series is retired (after all, the J-6 UAV can be maintained for many years based on inventory), and there is no anti-thrust device. There is no doubt that the "life engineering" mentioned here refers not to others, but also to turbofan-18, and also to turbofan-18 for Yun-20.

▲ As a tradition of confidentiality, although it is impossible to be different from the original, it is necessary to code.

To say that this backstepping in the press release can become a "bottleneck project that restricts current delivery", although Shi Lao is a little bit uncertain, he thinks it is more reasonable. After all, the earliest "turbine fan-18" that was made into the original was the turbofan-18A that was mounted on the H-6K after the original D-30KP2 was adjusted and modified. ), And because the H-6K does not need to push back, a very important step in the modification of the turbofan-18A is to "backcast" the push back first. Coupled with the fact that China ’s aviation industry has not experienced turbochargers development other than turbofan-20 and CJ1000A so far, it seems no wonder that this thing has become a little strange.

▲ The reverse development of Turbofan-20

Since the news mentioned that this batch of turbofan-18 is "the first model batch delivery", whether it is good or bad, since turbofan-18 has reached the batch production requirement, it undoubtedly indicates that the project has not only progressed, but the batch production delivery is still good news.

After all, for the imitation model engines, China's aviation industry has always been from the peripheral parts to the core parts. By “mixing” with the original engine little by little to test the performance and reliability of various imitation parts, it is possible to “batch production delivery” "At this step, obviously all the bad things encountered in the early imitation and production should have been solved to a certain extent. This is also corroborated by other reports of Chengfa that "the number and quality of the company's product delivery in 2019 has greatly improved compared with the past".

▲ Both "slow work and small work" and "big work and quick work" must be taken into consideration, which is not easy for any factory.

According to the news on November 4, since it is the annual goal of "decisive battle sixty days", then no matter how the situation after the final delivery of these engines, in January 2020, theoretically this The "decisive battle" should be completed. After completing the assembly and commissioning, the turbofan-18 will naturally be shipped to the guidance unit of the Yun-20-Xifei to accept the mass production combined with the Yun-20.
Of course, considering the impact of the new crown virus epidemic this year and a series of test adjustments after the engine arrives at the factory, the Yun-20 delivered to the Air Force a few days ago and the Yun-20 that has now performed its mission. The original is not unexpected. D-30KP2.


If it all goes well, you may see the national production of Yun-20 in the second half of this year.
To be honest, in the second decade of the 21st century, a Chinese aviation company took great efforts to imitate a Russian-made turbofan engine of the 1960s, which was also quite difficult. Of course, when the imitation work was carried out, there was no special aviation research institute to take the lead.

The selected imitation main engine factory was also a factory with weak technical capabilities in China's aviation development factories. There was no doubt that this model was successfully imitated . Among them, the so-called factory interests and even the personal career experience of the leaders are inevitable, but one reason Shi Lao thinks is very likely is that everyone like the turbofan-18 is quite meaningful to the Chinese Air Force. On important products, the complexity of this issue of engine imitation is underestimated.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
(CONT)


▲ "Oath of the Oathmaster" is after all a very means. This can be done for the first batch of production, and the improvement of daily management is even more critical.

According to the previous orders for several batches of D-30KP2 turbofan engines signed by China and Russia, 2020 will be the last year of Russian delivery in accordance with regulations. This year Russia will deliver 58 engines in the final round of China. If all of these engines are used in the production of Yun-20 and H-6 series, they can actually meet the production of large aircraft in West China in 2020. And considering that the turbofan-18 produced and delivered in 2019 should also be put into the production of Yun-20, so if all goes well, the output of Yun-20 this year will increase a lot compared with previous years; even in turbofans There are some problems with the cooperation of -18 and Yun-20. This year can also be used as a transition year for turbofan-18, so that the aviation and aircraft manufacturers have time to run in with each other.

From this perspective, whether China and Russia will sign a new purchase order for the D-30KP2 engine from 2020-2021 can be used as a side proof of the smoothness of the application of the turbofan-18 after the batch production is delivered. After all, China is not just relying on the D-30KP2 / Turbofan-18 engine for this large transport aircraft, the Chinese Air Force's strategic nuclear strike force, long-range precision strike force against the second island chain, and the backbone of air-launched anti-ship missiles. The main bomber used by the Force also has a large demand for turbofan-18A engines. Even in the Air Force's future bomber projects, the D-30KP2 / Turbofan-18 engine may still play a certain role.

From this perspective, the importance of the D-30KP2 / turbofan-18 engine to the Chinese Air Force is beyond doubt. Whether Chengfachang ’s “decisive battle” over many years has gone smoothly is not only an examination of its own destiny, but also a major event concerning the future direction of the Chinese strategic air force.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Yup talking from his rear NO CHINA DOES NOT HAVE DIFFICULTIES HERE IS THE LATEST
...


▲ The reverse development of Turbofan-20

....

To admit, I'm a bit surprised by your quite bolt statement, especially when the text says that there are indeed issues, it might only appear eventually this year and this image is clearly wrong (since it does not show a WS-20, but a regular D-30KP-2), which in general makes its credibility highly questionable.
 

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