Chinese Economics Thread

Damingli85

Junior Member
Blair was a pretty good PM, of course sometimes when he had to do an anti-chinese move it got me a little upset, but the guy is not that bad at all. Years from now he will be ranked among the other famous guys I even dare to say Churchill. Now I might get flamed for this, but I also like Bush2. The guy had guts to tackle problems. People say he is dumb and blah blah blah. However he is not dumb, a country need a leader who can do things.
 

flyzies

Junior Member
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China's Growth Is Real
Zachary Karabell, 10.26.09, 02:30 PM EDT
The People's Republic high GDP numbers are no fluke.

On Oct. 22, China released its official data for economic growth, which showed the economy expanding at a torrid rate of 8.9% in the third quarter. That activity was fueled largely by massive construction and infrastructure projects initiated by Beijing and regional authorities, as well as by a sharp rebound in exports. Unlike the stimulus package in the U.S., which has been doled out in dribs and drabs, China put its $600 billion package to work almost immediately and backed that up with more than $1 trillion in loans. American banks, in contrast, have been hoarding deposits and loath to loan.

China's growth, however, goes beyond these GDP statistics. Retails sales surged in October by 15.5%, industrial production by 13.9%; car sales hit a new all-time high; and the housing market continued to boom. Meanwhile, inflation remains nonexistent, which in a fast-developing economy such as China is almost unheard of.

And yet, the headlines in paper after paper--and in a variety of Wall Street research notes--are best summed up by this in TheNew York Times, "China's rapid economic growth rate raise some concerns," and then in another headline inside, "Talk of stock bubble and an export slump." With Chinese equities up more than 65% this year and property values having surged even more, there have been murmurings that China may soon tighten credit, raise interest rates and succumb to one of several potential bubbles. And, say these voices, its economy is too dependent on state spending, not reliant enough on domestic consumption and still aided by a currency kept purposely and dangerously undervalued.

American coverage of the Chinese economy is like that of a weatherman who routinely begins forecast of sunny weather in the mid-70s by saying that because it didn't rain today, there will be a deluge soon. Meanwhile, when U.S. figures are released in a few weeks showing perhaps 3% growth based entirely on a weak dollar and inventory growth, many will hail the domestic recovery. But the fact remains that right now China, not the U.S., is the dynamic economy pulling the world along in its wake.

China has maintained a high level of growth for the past decade, and in many respects, for the past 20 years. While there's ample reason to be skeptical of the smoothness of Chinese official data that have rarely dipped below 7% growth and rarely exceeded 10%, if anything the official figures understate the success of the Chinese model. With as many of 800 million people still living in rural poverty, China's growth is the product of urban areas, many of which have been growing in the range of 15% for the past decade. That includes obvious examples such as Shanghai and less obvious but equally important interior cities such as Chongqing.

While the peculiar formula that China has adopted violates Western views about what constitutes the "right way" to grow, there can be no gainsaying the fact that China's recipe has proved more stable and successful than any of the orthodoxies propagated by the World Bank, by development economists and by countless economists today who continue to critique China as too dependent on state spending and "fixed asset investment" (i.e., infrastructure) and not enough on spending by consumers.

China has not only maintained its growth during the global crisis of the past year; it has tweaked and improved on it, so that more activity is now coming from the interior and western parts of the country rather than the coastal and export-oriented regions. Given that the development of the interior has only recently been a focus, it will take years, which means that there is no real end in sight for China's expansion. Yes, there will be bubbles, but what the critics have missed is that the growth of the past years has seen multiple bubbles form and pop--in Shanghai real estate, in stocks not once but at least three times, in export industries, and in loan growth and contraction. To those who warn darkly of another stock bubble, the response should be, so what? Shanghai can go up and down 75%--enriching and then destroying portfolios, elating and then depressing millions of investors--and the lumbering giant of the overall economy will continue to plow ahead.

In short, China's economy is for real. It's time for the rest of the world to stop waiting for it to halt or collapse and start preparing for it to grow more rapidly and more robustly than any country has in quite some time. It's time to recognize that because China's growth is inherently deflationary--providing goods and services to the world and for itself at lower costs--inflation is not in the cards any time soon but that China, as a hungry consumer of scarce raw materials, will put real pressure on the price of oil, copper, iron ore and every other commodity known to man. It's time to prepare for a world where China assumes an ever larger place, rather than treating current data like a short-term phenomenon that will pass (as Japan's did in the 1980s) and leave the U.S. once again the sole economic giant bestriding the world. That script is the past; China is the present, and the future.

Zachary Karabell is president of River Twice Research and the author of Superfusion: How China and America Became One Economy and Why the World's Prosperity Depends On It, which was just published by Simon & Schuster.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
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China's Growth Is Real
Zachary Karabell, 10.26.09, 02:30 PM EDT
The People's Republic high GDP numbers are no fluke.

On Oct. 22, China released its official data for economic growth, which showed the economy expanding at a torrid rate of 8.9% in the third quarter. That activity was fueled largely by massive construction and infrastructure projects initiated by Beijing and regional authorities, as well as by a sharp rebound in exports. Unlike the stimulus package in the U.S., which has been doled out in dribs and drabs, China put its $600 billion package to work almost immediately and backed that up with more than $1 trillion in loans. American banks, in contrast, have been hoarding deposits and loath to loan.

China's growth, however, goes beyond these GDP statistics. Retails sales surged in October by 15.5%, industrial production by 13.9%; car sales hit a new all-time high; and the housing market continued to boom. Meanwhile, inflation remains nonexistent, which in a fast-developing economy such as China is almost unheard of.

And yet, the headlines in paper after paper--and in a variety of Wall Street research notes--are best summed up by this in TheNew York Times, "China's rapid economic growth rate raise some concerns," and then in another headline inside, "Talk of stock bubble and an export slump." With Chinese equities up more than 65% this year and property values having surged even more, there have been murmurings that China may soon tighten credit, raise interest rates and succumb to one of several potential bubbles. And, say these voices, its economy is too dependent on state spending, not reliant enough on domestic consumption and still aided by a currency kept purposely and dangerously undervalued.

American coverage of the Chinese economy is like that of a weatherman who routinely begins forecast of sunny weather in the mid-70s by saying that because it didn't rain today, there will be a deluge soon. Meanwhile, when U.S. figures are released in a few weeks showing perhaps 3% growth based entirely on a weak dollar and inventory growth, many will hail the domestic recovery. But the fact remains that right now China, not the U.S., is the dynamic economy pulling the world along in its wake.

China has maintained a high level of growth for the past decade, and in many respects, for the past 20 years. While there's ample reason to be skeptical of the smoothness of Chinese official data that have rarely dipped below 7% growth and rarely exceeded 10%, if anything the official figures understate the success of the Chinese model. With as many of 800 million people still living in rural poverty, China's growth is the product of urban areas, many of which have been growing in the range of 15% for the past decade. That includes obvious examples such as Shanghai and less obvious but equally important interior cities such as Chongqing.

While the peculiar formula that China has adopted violates Western views about what constitutes the "right way" to grow, there can be no gainsaying the fact that China's recipe has proved more stable and successful than any of the orthodoxies propagated by the World Bank, by development economists and by countless economists today who continue to critique China as too dependent on state spending and "fixed asset investment" (i.e., infrastructure) and not enough on spending by consumers.

China has not only maintained its growth during the global crisis of the past year; it has tweaked and improved on it, so that more activity is now coming from the interior and western parts of the country rather than the coastal and export-oriented regions. Given that the development of the interior has only recently been a focus, it will take years, which means that there is no real end in sight for China's expansion. Yes, there will be bubbles, but what the critics have missed is that the growth of the past years has seen multiple bubbles form and pop--in Shanghai real estate, in stocks not once but at least three times, in export industries, and in loan growth and contraction. To those who warn darkly of another stock bubble, the response should be, so what? Shanghai can go up and down 75%--enriching and then destroying portfolios, elating and then depressing millions of investors--and the lumbering giant of the overall economy will continue to plow ahead.

In short, China's economy is for real. It's time for the rest of the world to stop waiting for it to halt or collapse and start preparing for it to grow more rapidly and more robustly than any country has in quite some time. It's time to recognize that because China's growth is inherently deflationary--providing goods and services to the world and for itself at lower costs--inflation is not in the cards any time soon but that China, as a hungry consumer of scarce raw materials, will put real pressure on the price of oil, copper, iron ore and every other commodity known to man. It's time to prepare for a world where China assumes an ever larger place, rather than treating current data like a short-term phenomenon that will pass (as Japan's did in the 1980s) and leave the U.S. once again the sole economic giant bestriding the world. That script is the past; China is the present, and the future.

Zachary Karabell is president of River Twice Research and the author of Superfusion: How China and America Became One Economy and Why the World's Prosperity Depends On It, which was just published by Simon & Schuster.


The above article could have been referring to guys like Andy Xie? Poor old Andy Xie hes been proven wrong on so many occassions. But be that as it may and disregarding his track record, is there anything he states below worth due consideration?


Insight: Is China due a reality check?
By Andy Xie
Published: October 15 2009 16:32 | Last updated: October 15 2009 16:32
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The United States had 1929, Japan 1989, and south-east Asia 1997. Will China face a similar moment of reckoning a few years from now?
The question is crucial, not just for those investing in Asia today, but for the wider global market. For as investors around the world reel from the recent financial crisis, many have clung to the idea of a Chinese boom, as the one bright spot of hope in an otherwise grim world. The trouble is that history suggests that much of this optimism may be misplaced.
Financial markets have a way of working themselves into a frenzy during rapid economic development, which ends up leading to disaster. It is the ultimate testimony to the gross inefficiency of markets. The problem is the unique mix of extreme optimism and rampant liquidity that occurs during periods of rapid economic development.
Economic development, especially in a large country like China, generates exceptional optimism for many reasons. Nothing brings out the animal spirits in humans like watching the economic pie expanding. And it is natural to buy risk assets such as stocks to express one’s optimism over the future.
The problem is that market competition tends to depress capital returns and give the fruits of economic development to workers and consumers rather than investors. High asset prices incentivise companies to over-invest, which depresses returns on capital. This is why investors tend to do poorly during periods of rapid economic growth.
A low income base and favourable demographics help promote successful economic development. Both tend to lead to excess liquidity due to a high savings rate on incremental income growth. When a population is urbanising, even though its productivity is shifting from the agricultural to the industrial level, consumption habits remain rural that is, anything beyond necessities is viewed as luxury and is minimised. The widening gap between the labour productivity increase and the consumption preference leads to the excess liquidity that feeds bubbles.
China’s one-child policy brings the ultimate demographic dividend but probably makes the country the most bubble-prone in modern times. The situation is made worse by the revenue dependency of local governments on the property market. Local government officials who change every five years or so have strong incentives to juice up the property market to maximise their revenues. This political incentive sows the seed for a great property bubble.
Similarly, China’s stock market will remain overvalued, although it will deflate from time to time during panics and temporary liquidity shortages. The combination of low returns on capital and high share prices means businesses turn to the stock market rather than to their customers for profit.
But when businesses make profits from, rather than for, the stock market, it becomes a negative sum game. It needs continuing liquidity inflows to sustain it. This is why high growth and a high savings rate are vital.
On the other hand, such a market essentially subsidises capital formation. The capital subsidy leads to overcapacity and low returns on capital. This is why poor profitability, high asset prices, and high economic growth rates can coexist. Indeed, they must exist together.
China’s economic development is undoubtedly going to be the most important economic event for the next decade or two. But the semi-permanent bubble situation makes it extremely difficult for financial investors to participate in this story.
“Buy and hold” simply won’t work. Value investing doesn’t work because value investors base their decisions on price/earnings ratios and price/book value ratios falling below certain levels.
Chinese stocks never get there. If you are Warren Buffett, you can create your own bubble. He recently bought a stake in BYD, a maker of mobile phone batteries. The stock has since risen 8 times. If you are not Warren Buffett, I suggest “buy low, sell high”. The problem is working out what is high and what is low.
The day of reckoning will come when the high economic growth rate finally falters. This could happen either when the favourable demographic trend worsens or urbanisation ends. When either or both occurs, liquidity or savings do not grow any more. At that point, the stock market can not be subsidised anymore.
China’s final day of reckoning is probably 10 years away.
By that time, half of China’s babyboomers who were born between 1950 and 1978 will have retired. And the Chinese urbanisation rate will be about half what it is today. The good news is China will be a developed country by then. The bad news is there will be no cheap money for supporting overvalued asset prices any more.

The writer is an independent economist based in Shanghai and former chief economist for Asia-Pacific at Morgan Stanley
 
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Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
On a funny sidenote, Germany is about to cancel developmental aid to China, which amounted to 70 million Euro last year.

Nothing against China or in favor of Germanys CDU gouverment, but I actually agree in China not needing foreign help anymore.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
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China's Growth Is Real
Zachary Karabell, 10.26.09, 02:30 PM EDT
The People's Republic high GDP numbers are no fluke.

this article raised a really good point regarding China's GDP growth, that it is primarily driven by the growth in cities. if you look at the GDP data in the cities, the growth is insane, i remember seeing 23% GDP growth at one point. but the rural areas has been left out of the equation. it is understandable since you cant achieve much of a growth with agriculture, but that could be an issue in the long term. there are two things that China must do (and this is recommended by China's thinktank), urbanization and industrialization of agriculture. improved income and living condition and productivity in the rural areas and urbanization will not only ameliorated the regional imbalance of China's economy, but also its structural imbalance cuz the huge potential of the rural consumer market can absorb a lot of China's surplus goods.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
On a funny sidenote, Germany is about to cancel developmental aid to China, which amounted to 70 million Euro last year.

Nothing against China or in favor of Germanys CDU gouverment, but I actually agree in China not needing foreign help anymore.

I cant exactly remember the numbers but its a very substantial amount, Sometime ago I read that Japan gives/gave development aid to China as well.

There was a lot of speculation on whether it was really war reparation but (wink wink nod nod) they called it this so as not to attract claims from other countries Japan waged war on???

I stand to be corrected on this, but didnt China receive money from the World Wild Life Fund, for its "Save the Panda campaign"
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I cant exactly remember the numbers but its a very substantial amount, Sometime ago I read that Japan gives/gave development aid to China as well.

There was a lot of speculation on whether it was really war reparation but (wink wink nod nod) they called it this so as not to attract claims from other countries that Japan waged war on???

I stand to be corrected on this, but didnt China receive money from the World Wild Life Fund, for its "Save the Panda campaign"

The amount is 6 Billion dollars over 30 years and that is LOAN albeit low interest but still loan and not GRANT. It is more subsidy to Japanese industry because the loan stipulate that Japanese contractor and supplier must be used.

But still in the early year of reform and opening up they did provide the basis for further industrialization. Most of the loan is used for infrastructure project like double tracking and electrification of rail line, Port and steel plant construction ( Baosteel)

China did acknowledge this contribution during Hu and Wen visit to Japan!

But 6 billion dollars is nothing but small peanut considering that China's recent stimulus run 560 Billion dollars over 2 years

Overseas Chinese still is the largest investor in China collectively they pour billion of dollars contrary to the wide spread perception that the west should be credited with investment in China !
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Mightypeon

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The German contribution was also quite peanut like (70 million a year aint that much on a global scale), but well, its not nothing either.

I am not aware of the stipulations concerning the use of this money though.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
The German contribution was also quite peanut like (70 million a year aint that much on a global scale), but well, its not nothing either.

I am not aware of the stipulations concerning the use of this money though.

But it would go along way in the really poor countries in Africa etc
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
The amount is 6 Billion dollars over 30 years and that is LOAN albeit low interest but still loan and not GRANT. It is more subsidy to Japanese industry because the loan stipulate that Japanese contractor and supplier must be used.

But still in the early year of reform and opening up they did provide the basis for further industrialization. Most of the loan is used for infrastructure project like double tracking and electrification of rail line, Port and steel plant construction ( Baosteel)

China did acknowledge this contribution during Hu and Wen visit to Japan!

But 6 billion dollars is nothing but small peanut considering that China's recent stimulus run 560 Billion dollars over 2 years

Overseas Chinese still is the largest investor in China collectively they pour billion of dollars contrary to the wide spread perception that the west should be credited with investment in China !
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Thanks for clarifying the matter
 
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