Chinese Aviation Industry


ougoah

Captain
Registered Member
My point is that there is no challenge. The reason the UK and France don’t build larger military grade engines is because they don’t have a need for them. They don’t make heavy weight fighters. Remember, the UK and France build engines that go on the largest wide body commercial planes. Up scaling the size of the engine is not a challenge for them. That alone should tell you that the absence of these engines does not exclude their technological capabilities from meeting the same or better levels.
I don't disagree at all. If you read what's been said carefully, I never argued they can't. I've only pointed out they haven't. And if you read my posts really carefully, you'll even notice I already pointed out what you're trying to say before you said it.

I wrote high thrust in this class. EJ200 and M53 are the highest UK and French engines. SNECMA's M88 is a more sophisticated and modern engine compared to the M53 but it only outputs 50KN dry and 75KN afterburner. Compared this to WS-10A's 85KN dry and 130KN afterburner. These are old WS-10 figures from more than 10 years ago. More modern WS-10 variants are estimated to be similar or higher in thrust than AL-31FN series 3 and better.

So no I wouldn't put the UK and France in the high thrust league even though I'm sure they'd have no problems building one. They don't have the need to justify the costs but they have the industries and the technology for it. Here it's a case of not doing isn't the same as not being able to do. So far only China, US, and Russia have low bypass turbofans in the F110 class and above. Both Russia and China have used their AL-31 and WS-10 series to get thrust that approach F119 levels but have not fielded any engines of this class/generation or the even more powerful F135. EJ200 is 60KN - 90KN.
:rolleyes:

In any case, they haven't got any high thrust low bypass engines so it'll take them a while to build one even IF they can.
 

latenlazy

Colonel
I don't disagree at all. If you read what's been said carefully, I never argued they can't. I've only pointed out they haven't. And if you read my posts really carefully, you'll even notice I already pointed out what you're trying to say before you said it.



:rolleyes:

In any case, they haven't got any high thrust low bypass engines so it'll take them a while to build one even IF they can.
Testing schedules for already developed designs and well studied materials don’t take nearly as long as for experimental ones. The length of time China took to test the WS-10 is actually quite abnormal and rather slow compared to how a country with a more developed gas turbine industry would take. And upscaled EJ200 would take a lot less time than a clean sheet engine design, but even a clean sheet design, so long as it uses mature components and materials, wouldn’t take *that* long. The real determination of the gap between one country’s gas turbine tech base and another’s really is in the state of their components and materials and not what designs they have in production. One reason the WS-19 will probably take a much shorter time to develop than the WS-15 is because it will basically be using the same foundation of components and materials. *That’s* why separating Russia, China, and the US out from Germany or France only on the basis of whether they have a heavy weight fighter engine just isn’t an accurate reflection of reality. It’s like saying Russia is more advanced than other countries on jet engines because they’re the only country with NK-32 sized engines.
 

ougoah

Captain
Registered Member
Testing schedules for already developed designs and well studied materials don’t take nearly as long as for experimental ones. The length of time China took to test the WS-10 is actually quite abnormal and rather slow compared to how a country with a more developed gas turbine industry would take. And upscaled EJ200 would take a lot less time than a clean sheet engine design, but even a clean sheet design, so long as it uses mature components and materials, wouldn’t take *that* long. The real determination of the gap between one country’s gas turbine tech base and another’s really is in the state of their components and materials and not what designs they have in production. One reason the WS-19 will probably take a much shorter time to develop than the WS-15 is because it will basically be using the same foundation of components and materials. *That’s* why separating Russia, China, and the US out from Germany or France only on the basis of whether they have a heavy weight fighter engine just isn’t an accurate reflection of reality. It’s like saying Russia is more advanced than other countries on jet engines because they’re the only country with NK-32 sized engines.
When did I say China, US, and Russia are more "advanced than other countries"? Since you pointed this out with your NK-32 analogy. Your analogy isn't relevant because that's never been my point which was to dispel the myth of Chinese engine incompetence. The details we don't need to get into because we both know what's what. The issue is the article propagating the idea that Chinese engines still don't work despite over 10 years of successful proven service of a high thrust turbofan, a class of engine only Russia and the US have produced. Nothing about European engines. I even mentioned they're probably more than able to build one but don't have the need yet. What is your issue?
 

supercat

Junior Member
China’s Comac Gets a Chance to Narrow Gap With Airbus and Boeing
Government backing can help the jetmaker land orders while its rivals are retrenching.

Comac is part of China’s strategy to become more self-sufficient in everything from semiconductors to satellites. The country will need to buy $1.3 trillion of planes over two decades, according to a 2018 forecast by Comac, which is conducting test flights for its single-aisle C919, designed to rival the Boeing 737 and Airbus A320, and is in early-stage development of a widebody jet with a Russian company.

For now, Comac’s only plane in operation is the ARJ21, a jet that can seat up to 90 passengers. Since introducing it in 2015, the company has managed to deliver fewer than three dozen. But in June it delivered the ARJ21 for the first time to the country’s most important airlines Air China, China Eastern Airlines, and China Southern Airlines—who will receive a combined 105 by 2024. And China Express Airlines, a regional carrier, in June ordered a total of 100 ARJ21s and C919s. “This is the time where a company like Comac that has a bunch of government funding can continue to drive forward even as others are retrenching,” says George Ferguson, a Bloomberg Intelligence analyst.
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stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
I predict that GE will choke the engine supplies right about when the C919 is about to go into mass production.
It is probably the real reason why Trump has allowed GE to work with COMAC for now.
well, at that point likely that the Chinese will have developed matured good engine. Also the Chinese could go to the French or British ?

So all of you believe trump will get re-elected...interesting...
 

AssassinsMace

Brigadier
Remember that Obama laid the groundwork for much of Trump's anti-China policies. Obama wanted to kill China's domestic airline industry. Obama targeted Huawei and ZTE. Obama was alarmed over Made in China 2025. I expect Biden would try to get as much out of China before any sort of reversal of Trump's policies.
 

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