China's SCS Strategy Thread

Brumby

Major
Okay.

In which case, I don't understand your post 2353 in response to Joshuatree's, because it seems to be quite irrelevant to the primary case that he was making (which was that the article was incorrectly quoting Xi and essentially making a straw man), nor was it relevant to the secondary case he was making (which was in regards to the different degrees of militarization that each party had made in the SCS and/or were in the process of making).
I intentionally ignored it because it would be a discussion that goes no where as the resulting situation is simply posturing between two countries

From the way I read your post again, it didn't seem to be refuting any of his statements, and you obviously weren't backing up any of his statements so I'm not really sure what your bottom line was.
I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by "farce" in the SCS in regards to militarization there.
.... that the source of a lot of these issues is because the historical rule based structured is fractured and so the parties are just talking past each and playing the tune to its own audience. So until and unless the international established legal framework is recognised and respected then there is frankly no objective discussions to be had. Consequently any statement, position or promise is simply a farce.
 

Blitzo

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I intentionally ignored it because it would be a discussion that goes no where as the resulting situation is simply posturing between two countries

Okay, fair enough.


.... that the source of a lot of these issues is because the historical rule based structured is fractured and so the parties are just talking past each and playing the tune to its own audience. So until and unless the international established legal framework is recognised and respected then there is frankly no objective discussions to be had. Consequently any statement, position or promise is simply a farce.

Okay, I can agree with that position in principle. I do think it's a very broad statement and position with no direct relationship to the more detailed discussion Joshuatree was eliciting, but that's fine.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
It has become a farce when statement has no meaning because what constitutes rule based behaviour has been thrown out of the window. Actions are judged based on whether it is legitimate and not whether you have a certain preference in defining its meaning. Is the Paracel islands in the SCS? According to your reasoning its location can be excluded just as the Hainan island is. The last time I checked, Hainan island is not in dispute. The source of the contention in the SCS is in the legitimacy of the actions and not in redefining the meaning of words. Rules are present to justify actions and to constrain behaviour. When there are no respect for rules, everything becomes debatable as we now faced. The US conducts war games just as the Chinese do. Is it a problem because the Chinese thinks so? What is the source of China's position? The right to sail in the high seas is a long established norm. China thinks It is provocative because it says so. What is its source to take such a position?



Legitimate? Who cares about legitimacy.

That's just a hollow word used to fool the public.

America has continuously refuse to play by the rules as it believes itself to be above the international norm, repeatedly violated Geneva conventions, operated inhumane military prisons around the world, invaded many soverign nations ILLEGALLY even when internaltional community condemns it.

Legitimate? Who cares about legitimacy.

Only a shameless hypocrite would bring that up.

The real message is - Only might is right.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
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The High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) was the star of a simulated assault exercise by 5,500 US and Philippine soldiers, unleashing six missiles at distant targets from a dry riverbed three hours' drive from Manila.

US Marine Cobra attack helicopters and Philippine S211 jets also buzzed over the Crow Valley training range as Filipino and US troops acted out the capture of imaginary enemy-held territory.

The exercises were staged in the shadow of a festering dispute between the poorly equipped US ally and regional giant China over islands, reefs and waters in the resource-rich South China Sea.

"The truth of the matter is we are allies and as allies, we need to work together," Lieutenant-General John Toolan, the US Marine Corps Pacific commander told reporters, referring to the missile system.

"I think we will be more than happy to share," he said when asked if the US would deploy HIMARS to the Philippines in the case of armed conflict over the South China Sea.

The system's range is 300 kilometres (186 miles), Toolan said, meaning it could hit vessels far from the Philippine landmass.

China claims most of the South China Sea, even waters and rocks close to the coasts of several neighbours that overlap with their claims.

Beijing has reclaimed several reefs claimed by Manila and built structures on them that the Philippines alleges were designed for military use -- a charge China denies.

- 'Highly mobile, lethal' -

Although the United States has not taken a stand on the conflicting claims to the South China Sea, it has opposed China's efforts to claim the waters and has stressed freedom of navigation in the vital sealane.

"We have seen the capability. It is highly mobile, lethal. So I think it is one of the capabilities we want to have," Philippine Navy Vice-Admiral Alexander Lopez said as he watched the missile firing.

Lopez, the commander of Filipino forces in the South China Sea, told reporters this would "raise the skill and the respect for your armed forces, not only for the Filipinos but also in our region".

Toolan said the two-week manoeuvres displayed the capability of both armies to deploy rapidly across the Asian archipelago.

The truck-mounted missile system had been flown aboard a giant military transport plane to an airport near the Crow Valley firing range earlier in the day from the western Philippine island of Palawan.

The Philippines has been improving its defence ties with the United States to help upgrade its capability to defend its territory.

The Philippines has allowed American forces to rotate through five Philippine bases including one on Palawan and another in the north, both close to the South China Sea.

Asked if HIMARS systems would be deployed in these five bases, Toolan said: "That's not necessarily in the plan but obviously, with the mobility the HIMARS gives you, you can use it anywhere."




next comes ASBMs stationed on Huangyan island(when it's ready for deployment in a hypothesized strategic scenario) as tit-for-tat??




HIMARS? AWESOME!
Looks like it will be a fun shooting war!

And no, China doesn't need to deploy ASBMs as tit-for-tat just yet, China has SY-400!

SY-400-TEL.jpg


Now let's see, HIMARS has a maximum firing range of 300 km, and SY-400 has 400 km.

If all things are equal (meaning under heavy EW/GPS jamming scenerio), I am betting the one with shorter range gets their face flatten. After that THEN China can bring out the big mace eg. ASBMs to finish off the incoming CSG task force.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Legitimate? Who cares about legitimacy.


That's just a hollow word used to fool the public.
For one, Beijing says it cares about legitimacy and international laws. But, I agree with you that generally speaking, when governments, all governments, use words like legitimacy, and rule-based bla bla bla, they're talking out both sides of their mouths.

America has continuously refuse to play by the rules as it believes itself to be above the international norm, repeatedly violated Geneva conventions, operated inhumane military prisons around the world, invaded many soverign nations ILLEGALLY even when internaltional community condemns it.
Nations pursue their national interests, and great powers do that with more horsepower. The chief difference between neocons in Washington and in neocons Beijing is how much weight they are able to throw around. As China continues its reemergence, it will throw more and more weight around its national interests.

Legitimate? Who cares about legitimacy.
Weak states care far more about legitimacy in foreign affairs than strong states. For example, when China was weak, it called on the Western predators to honor their own "rule-based international laws," and we all know how well that turned out. So to answer your question, who cares about legitimacy? The strong cares if it costs them nothing and makes them look good; the weak cares, especially against the strong.

Only a shameless hypocrite would bring that up.
Oh don't be too harsh on the gentleman, it's so useful to mouth highfalutin phrases and ideals to sound righteous and cultured. Surely it's fair for all of us to take turns riding the high horse.

The real message is - Only might is right.
From Iraq to Natuna Islands, nothing has changed.
 
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Brumby

Major
Legitimate? Who cares about legitimacy.

That's just a hollow word used to fool the public.

America has continuously refuse to play by the rules as it believes itself to be above the international norm, repeatedly violated Geneva conventions, operated inhumane military prisons around the world, invaded many soverign nations ILLEGALLY even when internaltional community condemns it.

Legitimate? Who cares about legitimacy.

Only a shameless hypocrite would bring that up.

The real message is - Only might is right.
There is nothing new under the sun. Argue the law or the facts but if you have none then resort to brute reasoning. In state terms that is might is right and that is what Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan believe. I guess no one believes in learning from history except using history to criticise other past regimes but takes the same pathway.
 

ahojunk

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2016-04-15 08:39 | China Daily | Editor: Feng Shuang

Beijing has voiced "resolute opposition against infringement of China's sovereignty and security by any country in any form".

The Foreign Ministry spelled out China's stance after the Pentagon said that U.S.-Philippine joint patrols in the South China Sea will occur "regularly".

U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter confirmed on Thursday that the U.S. and the Philippines had already conducted such patrols.

The Foreign Ministry told China Daily, "The military exchanges ... should not target a third party, not to mention supporting some countries to provoke China's sovereignty and security, flaring regional contradictions and damaging regional peace and stability."

Beijing will follow developments, and general stability has been maintained in the South China Sea "through joint efforts by China and relevant countries", the ministry said

Carter reported the U.S. confirmation at a news conference with Philippine Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin in Manila. Carter met with the Philippine President Benigno Aquino earlier in the day.

Without quoting a source, Reuters reported the Pentagon saying that the first joint patrol took place in March and a second one took place earlier this month.

Carter started a visit to the Philippines on Wednesday during the annual U.S.-Philippine military drill that started on April 4. He will attend the closing ceremony on Friday.

Zhang Junshe, a senior researcher at the PLA Naval Military Studies Research Institute, said the U.S. will damage peace in the South China Sea by calling for joint patrols.

"When Washington calls China's behavior in the South China Sea 'coercive', the joint patrols have been a slap in the face. This is sheer coercion against China's peaceful development," Zhang said.

Carter said U.S. forces will be given access to more military bases in the Philippines than the five announced already.

The Ministry of National Defense said, "The U.S. Army has now returned, has reinforced its military presence in the Philippines and has given rise to militarization in the South China Sea region."
 

weig2000

Captain
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April 12, 2016 1:45PM
Calls to “Do More” in the South China Sea Miss Bigger Questions

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The territorial dispute between China and multiple Southeast Asian countries in the South China Sea (SCS) is the most pressing geopolitical issue in U.S.-China relations. The United States has responded to Chinese island building by increasing its military presence around the SCS and coordinating with friendly countries. However, criticism of the Obama administration’s approach, grounded on the presumption that U.S. efforts to date have been inadequate, calls to mind a set of lyrics from the anti-Vietnam War anthem “
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” by Creedence Clearwater Revival:
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And when you ask them, ‘How much should we give?’
They only answer More! More! More!”
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It is difficult to determine what exactly “more” means given the already high level of U.S. activity in the SCS since the
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a freedom of navigation operation (FONOP) in late October 2015. Since then, the U.S. Navy has conducted
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in addition to other patrols involving
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. Additionally, Philippine-U.S. military cooperation has reached its highest point since American forces were ejected from the country in 1991. Notable examples of cooperation are the
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for the U.S. military to set up “permanent logistics facilities” at five Filipino air bases, and tens of millions of dollars in military aid to improve the Philippines’ maritime patrol and surveillance capabilities.
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Many pundits and experts have responded to this increased American presence and engagement by demanding “more”. A recent article by AEI’s Edward Linczer recommends increasing America’s
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to friendly SCS countries, and Senator John McCain called for “
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” in the event that China declares an air defense identification zone in the region. The overwhelming consensus among American SCS watchers is that the United States is not doing enough to stand up to China, which is giving China tacit permission to act aggressively. By doing “more” China will eventually be forced to back down.
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Asking for “more” in the SCS is not a long-term solution. Beijing has been willing and able to respond in kind to greater American shows of force or resolve. The “do more” advocates argue that the United States just hasn’t hit China’s breaking point yet, but, given the importance of the SCS for China and the relatively low level of military hardware it has placed in the region thus far, such a breaking point, if it exists, will be difficult to reach. Additionally, if “doing more” triggers an assertive response by China, then regional allies and partners will likely feel more threatened and demand even greater American shows of commitment. This creates a dangerous spiral of increasing threat perceptions and additional armaments in the SCS.

America’s short-term fixation on signaling and posturing in the SCS ignores questions about our long-term goals. Is the United States willing to risk armed conflict with China for the sake of interests that are more pressing to Vietnam and the Philippines? Does “doing more” carry downsides that will make America’s long-term position in the SCS more difficult to maintain? These are the kinds of strategic questions that need to be seriously debated; without such a debate, calls for “more” amount to tactics in search of strategy.
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ahojunk

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2016-04-15 18:55:31 | CRIENGLISH.com | Web Editor: Guan Chao

It's been revealed one of China's top military officials has made an unannounced stop on some of the Chinese islands still under construction in the South China Sea.

Fan Changlong, Vice Chair of the Central Military Commission, is said to have led a group of both military and government officials on an inspection tour to the area.

The revelation from the Chinese Defense Department hasn't made it clear when the tour took place, or which islands they inspected.

Chinese island reclamation projects in the South China Sea have sparked concerns from some in the international community.

However, the Chinese government says the projects are mostly designed to increase safety in the region, as they will assist in navigation, rescues and maritime research.
 

N00813

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Registered Member
Just in time too. Carter is going for a sail-by.

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China has accused the US of “sabotaging regional peace” after the Pentagon chief announced a military buildup in the Philippines, disputing Chinese territorial claims. Ash Carter said he will visit an aircraft carrier in the disputed region.
Speaking in the Philippines on Thursday, Defense Secretary Ash Carter said the US will keep nearly 300 troops, including Air Force commandos in the Philippines through the end of the month, despite completing the joint military drills. He added that US troops will have combat aircraft and helicopters at their disposal.
 
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