its not a matter of what caused the issue, but what will the bureaucrats in washington do to take advantage of it. so far you have a favourable condition for hardball, obama have spoken about this in Shanghai, clinton is whoring for air time and influence, and the congress needs something to start the year on a high note. if i were a politician i'd let it rip on China.
China's Internet Boom, Games, Addiction & other news
- Thread starter crobato
- Start date
Competition has nothing to do with it. But collectively, the hacking, the Green Dam, so called "porn" related crackdowns, required government registration and approval of websites, banning of everything like YouTube, WoW, Facebook, Twitter, Wikipedia, etc,. is turning China's Internet into an Intranet and cutting it off from the rest of the world.
China's Internet development is actually devolving. Don't ever think its good. Forums like this and others depend very much on a free Chinese Internet and webizens that are allowed to post pictures and say things.
williamhou
Junior Member
Google's plan to withdraw from China may be as much about poor business prospects as ethics
Jan 13th 2010 | BEIJING
From Economist.com
“WE’RE in this for the long haul”, wrote a Google executive four years ago when the internet giant launched a self-censored version of its search engine for China. Now Google says it might have to pull out of the country because of alleged attacks by hackers in China on its e-mail service and a tightening of restrictions on free speech online.
Google’s “new approach to China”, as the firm’s chief legal officer, David Drummond, called it in an official blog posting on Tuesday January 12th, will infuriate the government in Beijing. Official sensitivity to foreign complaints about internet controls in China was evident in November during a visit by President Barack Obama. His obliquely worded criticism of online censorship was itself expunged from official media reports. If the firm were to quit China, Google would be the first big foreign company to do so while citing concerns about freedom of speech.
Mr Drummond’s posting also involved unusually direct finger-pointing by a foreign firm at China as a source of hacker attacks. He said that in mid-December Google detected a “highly sophisticated and targeted attack” on its corporate computer systems “originating from China”. Its investigations found that at least 20 other large companies from a wide range of industries had been targeted. A primary goal, he said, appeared to be to gain access to the e-mail accounts of Chinese human-rights activists who use Google’s Gmail service. The hackers managed to penetrate partially two accounts.
The Gmail accounts of dozens of other advocates of human rights in China based in America, Europe and China itself had also been “routinely accessed by third parties”, Mr Drummond wrote. Unlike the mid-December attack, these breaches appeared to involve phishing scams or malware on the users’ computers rather than direct attacks on Google’s systems. He said these attacks, combined with “attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web”, had led Google to “review the feasibility” of its business in China.
The company has decided to stop censoring the results of Google.cn, its China-based search engine. Mr Drummond said this might result in having to shut down Google.cn and Google’s offices in China. In the face of much criticism from Western human-rights advocates, Google justified its decision to set up Google.cn in 2006 by pointing out that China often blocked its uncensored Google.com search engine. Better to offer a censored service (with warnings to users that results were filtered), the company argued, than offer nothing at all. China would certainly not allow an uncensored search engine to be based on its territory.
In Silicon Valley, the home of Google, the decision has been widely applauded. But some are asking whether it was “more about business than thwarting evil” to quote TechCrunch, a popular website. Despite its concessions to the Chinese government, the argument goes, Google had not made any headway against Baidu, China's leading search engine—and probably never will. In any case Google's revenues in China are “truly immaterial”, according to Mr Drummond, and its costs are not. It employs about 700 people in China, some of them royally paid engineers. Hacker attacks and censorship, critics say, may be convenient excuses for something Google wanted to do anyway–without it looking like a commercial retreat.
Nor had Google’s acquiescence to self-censorship of its searches made China any less wary of the company’s other, non-censored, services. Google’s video-sharing site, YouTube, has been blocked since March, because it carried footage of Chinese police beating Tibetan monks. Its photo-album site, Picasa Web Albums, has since suffered the same fate. Access to Google’s blog service, Blogger, has long been intermittent. (It is currently unavailable in Beijing.)
Google’s frustrations are widely shared. Before the Olympic games in Beijing in August 2008, China lifted longstanding blocks on several websites in an effort to present a more open image to visitors. Since then, controls have been stepped up to unprecedented levels. Internet access throughout the western region of Xinjiang has been all but cut off since the eruption of ethnic riots there in July. The unrest also prompted a nationwide closure of foreign social-networking sites such as Twitter and Facebook.
The role of such sites in Iran’s upheaval in June had already alarmed the government. Its fear of dissent erupting around the 60th anniversary in October of the founding of communist China prompted even greater vigilance against sensitive debate online. Since then there has been no sign of relaxation. In recent weeks, officials have tightened restrictions on the registration of websites under the .cn domain name (businesses only may apply). A crackdown on internet pornography has led to closer scrutiny by internet-service providers of non-porn websites.
In December, Yeeyan, a site providing translations of articles from foreign newspapers including the Guardian and the New York Times, was closed down for several days. It was allowed to reopen after putting tighter controls in place on the publishing of politically sensitive pieces. Ecocn.org, a site offering Chinese translations of articles in The Economist, was also shut down briefly as officials trawled for pornography, but re-emerged unscathed. The volunteers who maintain the site make sensitive articles available only to users they trust.
The anti-porn drive turned up the heat on Google too. Last year Google.cn was among several search engines in China accused by the authorities of providing links to pornographic sites. The state-controlled media gave particular prominence to Google’s alleged transgressions, which the company promised to investigate. The Chinese media have also published frequent criticisms in recent months of Google’s alleged violations of Chinese copyright in its Google Books search facility.
But China is clearly fearful that the company’s stand against censorship will be celebrated by many Chinese internet users. Chinese news accounts of the company’s decision failed to mention the reason for Google’s actions. Chinese web portals buried the story. Many internet users in China have become adept at finding ways of circumventing China’s blocks on overseas websites, including the installation of “virtual private network” software. Numerous tributes to Google that rapidly appeared on Chinese internet discussion forums, and flowers laid outside Google’s office in Beijing, showed that the authorities’ attempts at censorship had failed. Few, however, believe that the company’s announcement will dissuade China from keeping on trying.
BTW, is sinodefenceforum accessible from China?
I don't really see the so called "poor business prospects". Google still has 30% of the Chinese search market. Still amounts to hundreds of millions of dollars. Second, on another study, Google is actually even with Baidu on the fast growing mobile search market. Third, Chinese telephone carriers are now carrying Google Android smartphones and manufacturers like Motorola and HTC are making them for the Chinese market. Fourth, there is a huge abundant of talent in China which Google can't ignore. Fifth, many Chinese upstarts are attractive Google acquisitions and potential for investment.
Chances are Google may scale down or close its main search engine operation in China, since it cannot risk having its closely guarded search algorithms stolen, but it may still run its other services like Gmail and a modified mobile search operation for smartphones. Since Google is already trying to make its mobile search more real time and localized, its going to be relying more on localized data.
Note. Yahoo left the Chinese search market, but bought 40% of Alibaba.com.
Chances are Google may scale down or close its main search engine operation in China, since it cannot risk having its closely guarded search algorithms stolen, but it may still run its other services like Gmail and a modified mobile search operation for smartphones. Since Google is already trying to make its mobile search more real time and localized, its going to be relying more on localized data.
Note. Yahoo left the Chinese search market, but bought 40% of Alibaba.com.
personally i think the involvement of the state department makes it a lil trickier than just ethics or business prospects. but either way google picked a bad note to play here, cuz if the Chinese gov really gets pissed, google will lose other businesses in the Chinese market as well.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
China has censorship problems, but I think Google is being a sore loser. I like Baidu because it offers me stuff Google can't, and I like Google because it offers me stuff Baidu can't. When I want Chinese info, I greatly prefer Baidu to Google. When in the US, I actually prefer Clusty and Bing over Google.
In regard to Google's claim about censorship, I would say Google is full of it. If Google doesn't like it, then just leave quietly like any failing business. Google turned this into a moral issue even though Google censors information for the US government (i.e., alleged war crimes information) and works with the US government for domestic spying. If Google wants to get rid of censorship, then work with the Chinese government, or convince the Chinese government that allowing dissenters to speak is healthy for China's advancement, but I doubt the Chinese government will ever allow the Dalai Lama and his psycho squad to post BS claims about their alleged righteousness.
In regard to Google's claim about censorship, I would say Google is full of it. If Google doesn't like it, then just leave quietly like any failing business. Google turned this into a moral issue even though Google censors information for the US government (i.e., alleged war crimes information) and works with the US government for domestic spying. If Google wants to get rid of censorship, then work with the Chinese government, or convince the Chinese government that allowing dissenters to speak is healthy for China's advancement, but I doubt the Chinese government will ever allow the Dalai Lama and his psycho squad to post BS claims about their alleged righteousness.
the big issue here is that google opened up a dangerous precedent here. profit maximizers oughtta maintain a safe distance from politics. what google did is basically putting pressure on all other major firms who actually want to make money in China to do something that in some way will hurt the interest of both these firms and China, i must agree that if you wanna make a complaint do it through proper channels dont play with ideology and all that bs.
and there is such a favourable condition for the state department to step in. obama just commented about internet freedom in Shanghai, and hillary is desperately looking to expand her influence, what better an opportunity than to further a strategy that obama himself had endorsed?
and there is such a favourable condition for the state department to step in. obama just commented about internet freedom in Shanghai, and hillary is desperately looking to expand her influence, what better an opportunity than to further a strategy that obama himself had endorsed?
Competition may not be the overwhelming factor behind this move, but it certainly influenced it.
I am no fan of China's censorship, having experienced it myself when I was in China last year. But I see this as more of a legal issue than simply just a censorship one. Even if you disagree with a nation's laws, when you operate over there you still have to abide by them.
What Google is doing by threatening to pull out is saying to China's authorities "I am a big multinational company, I dont agree with your laws, so I'm not going to follow them while I'm doing business here."
What precedent does this set if China's govt actually backs down to Google over this??
So while I applaud Google standing up to censorship, them openly disregarding China's laws is simply not on.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
I call dog fart on that. If this Russian Jewish guy really hated Communist censorship or abusive governments, then where was he when Israel was violating Palestine far worse than anything China has ever done to Tibet or Uighur? Where was he when the US media completely reported propaganda about Israel's violation of Palestine's humans rights? This is a serious problem for the last few decades. Where was he when Google decided to work with the US government to spy on US citizens and US visitors? Where was he when Google decided to work with the US government to make it harder to find websites critical of the US government or other US organizations?
If he hated abusive or dumb government rules, he would go after all of them, instead of cherry picking the one nation where he doesn't get to have everything he wants. The guy is a sore, spoiled loser making up hypocritical arguments and silly personal excuses for his power grab. Even if he is being a vigilante or making a personal stand, he is still a hypocrite and narrow minded.
I hate China's censorship and human rights abuses, but you won't find me using that as an excuse to increase my profits or influence in China. To often do I read in historical documents about nations or organizations claiming they did something for justice/morals, but righteousness was just a pretext for their power grab.
Right now lots of Middle Easterners and people around the world believe Bush/Obama are using liberation or anti-terrorism as a pretext to conquer Iraq. Here is one book out of many on this subject:
"The Mother of All Battles" by Jeff Archer
Why isn't this Google "vigilante" promoting this idea or passionately telling the truth about how Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, yet, Iraq is suffering tremendously under failing military policies started by Bush and continued by Obama?
Hmm, it seems like this self-righteous Google guy focuses on moral arguments and justice that increases his wealth and influence. It's like millionaires/billionaires who start charities primarily for the positive image and the massive tax savings. The moral issue is a distant second place.
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