China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?


Crang

New Member
Registered Member
Lol, I get it man. Its uncomfortable for you to think that Chinese people could "kick" people out. You are just tied to the general morality that's all. But all I can say is, we live in world of "natural selection". All the large nations in the world became large by kicking out, assimilating and subjugating the original inhabitants of those places.

Even Humans themselves came from Africa and kicked out Homo Erec


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

What do you think about this map? Yap, it shows the Tai-Kadai language people that are now left in China. There are still Tai-Kadai people in Yangtze region. They live in the hilly areas now. All the flat land was ofcourse taken by the Han people.


So, the ancestors of the Tai people were kicked out of Yangtze region. Now you could say they are not the same as modern Thai and Zhuang people. But they are the descendants.


And talking Yue people, Do you know what is the name of Vietnam in Chinese? Yuenan :)

Chinese people still call the country Yuenan, which probably means land of the Yue people of something like that. Yue people are the ancestors of Vietnamese and Cambodians and many other Austroasiatic ethnic groups.
Yes. As I said, not Shanghai, but southern China. I never mentioned there was no Tai or Viet peoples in far south China. Even today, you can find a lot of Tai language family speakers in Yunnan.

And yes I said the ancestors of Tai and Viet peoples, not Tai and Viet peoples themselves. The ancestors of Europeans are not the same as Europeans.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes. As I said, not Shanghai, but southern China. I never mentioned there was no Tai or Viet peoples in far south China. Even today, you can find a lot of Tai language family speakers in Yunnan.
You can look at the map. Tai-Kadai people are still in as far north as North of Yangtze River. So, beyond shanghai. And this is not me talking about it. The researchers who study migration and language families say that the original homeland of such people were in the Yangtze River Valley.
 

Crang

New Member
Registered Member
Lol, I get it man. Its uncomfortable for you to think that Chinese people could "kick" people out. You are just tied to the general morality that's all. But all I can say is, we live in world of "natural selection". All the large nations in the world became large by kicking out, assimilating and subjugating the original inhabitants of those places.

Even Humans themselves came from Africa and kicked out Homo Erec


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

What do you think about this map? Yap, it shows the Tai-Kadai language people that are now left in China. There are still Tai-Kadai people in Yangtze region. They live in the hilly areas now. All the flat land was ofcourse taken by the Han people.


So, the ancestors of the Tai people were kicked out of Yangtze region. Now you could say they are not the same as modern Thai and Zhuang people. But they are the descendants.


And talking Yue people, Do you know what is the name of Vietnam in Chinese? Yuenan :)

Chinese people still call the country Yuenan, which probably means land of the Yue people of something like that. Yue people are the ancestors of Vietnamese and Cambodians and many other Austroasiatic ethnic groups.
Yuenan means south of Yue. Nam means south in Vietnamese, just as nan in Japanese, nan in Chinese and nam in Korean.
 

Crang

New Member
Registered Member
You can look at the map. Tai-Kadai people are still in as far north as North of Yangtze River. So, beyond shanghai. And this is not me talking about it. The researchers who study migration and language families say that the original homeland of such people were in the Yangtze River Valley.
The very far north of Tai speakers in Yangtze likely migrated there. Most Tai speakers are actually at the Golden Triangle and Yunnan and Guangxi, not Yangtze, and certainly not Shanghai. Do you know where Shanghai is?
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
The very far north of Tai speakers in Yangtze likely migrated there. Most Tai speakers are actually at the Golden Triangle and Yunnan and Guangxi, not Yangtze, and certainly not Shanghai. Do you know where Shanghai is?
Any source?

I gave you a source in Wikipedia with Citations of researchers that say the homeland of AustroAsiatic people was Yangtze river valley or Sichuan basin. So what is your source?

For Tai people it could be south Eastern China around Jiangxi.

Interesting answer in Quora:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"There is indeed an important Tai-Kadai substrate in many of the modern Southern Chinese languages, for example in Wu and Cantonese. One study* shows that 20% of the core vocabulary of Cantonese is of Tai-Kai origin.

From genetic evidence** it seems that there is a notable divergence between the paternal and maternal lineages of Southern Han Chinese. It appears that Southern Han are in many cases descendants of Northern Han males and Southern non-Sinitic females. In general, genetic markers of Y-DNA show strong similarities between Northern and Southern Han, while those of mt-DNA exhibit great differences between the two.

But even among the male linages there is considerable contribution from O1-M119 (10%~20% for Wu-, Hakka-, Min-speaking groups), which is often associated with Tai-Kadai and Austronesian peoples***.
"

So genetic evidence also show that it was Han Chinese male who conquered Southern China and the female gene was probably Tai-Kadai or Austro-Asiatic.
 

Crang

New Member
Registered Member
Any source?

I gave you a source in Wikipedia with Citations of researchers that say the homeland of AustroAsiatic people was Yangtze river valley or Sichuan basin. So what is your source?

For Tai people it could be south Eastern China around Jiangxi.

Interesting answer in Quora:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"There is indeed an important Tai-Kadai substrate in many of the modern Southern Chinese languages, for example in Wu and Cantonese. One study* shows that 20% of the core vocabulary of Cantonese is of Tai-Kai origin.

From genetic evidence** it seems that there is a notable divergence between the paternal and maternal lineages of Southern Han Chinese. It appears that Southern Han are in many cases descendants of Northern Han males and Southern non-Sinitic females. In general, genetic markers of Y-DNA show strong similarities between Northern and Southern Han, while those of mt-DNA exhibit great differences between the two.

But even among the male linages there is considerable contribution from O1-M119 (10%~20% for Wu-, Hakka-, Min-speaking groups), which is often associated with Tai-Kadai and Austronesian peoples***.
"

So genetic evidence also show that it was Han Chinese male who conquered Southern China and the female gene was probably Tai-Kadai or Austro-Asiatic.
Once again I did not disagree with you on that. Jiangxi is south of Shanghai. Shanghai is the wrong place you used. Shanghai is still regarded as southern China, but you made a mistake when you said Shanghai was home to Viet and Tai peoples. That's a very big error. One day some one is going to claim China is colonizing Shanghai based on what you wrote. No one is disagreeing with you on the intermarriage. But you've gotten the different regions of China wrong.

From what I know most of the researchers claim the Pearl River, not Yangtze. But that is pedantic. You talk about white people being driven out of Australia etc as though we get to decide. Neither white people nor Chinese get to decide that. It's the native Australians who get to decide. You speak as though as you have the authority of aboriginal Australians.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
Once again I did not disagree with you on that. Jiangxi is south of Shanghai. Shanghai is the wrong place you used. Shanghai is still regarded as southern China, but you made a mistake when you said Shanghai was home to Viet and Tai peoples. That's a very big error. One day some one is going to claim China is colonizing Shanghai based on what you wrote.
I said in my original post (AKA shanghai) as an example. My original meaning was Yangzte river valley which composes Shanghai, southern Jiangxu, Hubei and also Jiangxi. Even Sichuan can be considerer Yangtze river valley.

And don't worry about people claiming China colonizing X or Y. Who cares what they think. Do they have power to take it from China?

If China does not have power to resist others from destroying them or subjugating them, then China will end. If Vietnam does not have the power to resist China from taking over. Then Vietnam will end. This is the way the world works. If you are strong you live, if you are weak then you become history.

China was already on the verge of destruction when Japanese tried to take over. But that was not the first. Mongols and Manchus were also capable of destroying the Chinese people. But they instead became Chinese because of the power of China's civilization.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I think you are diverging from the core discussion: it was @solarz who said that Song wasn't trying to annex Northern Han and Liao land, because all three were Chinese. Now, if I follow you explanation and apply @solarz logic, then Germany also wasn't trying to annex Polish land in WW2, because both countries are European.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to examine to what degree can China's historical grand strategy be explained through Confucian pacifism and to what degree through structural realism.
No, you're just trolling by presenting an extremely distorted view of history.

As I have said already, Song's neighbors were highly aggressive. China was fragmented after the fall of the Tang dynasty, and although Song managed to gain historical recognition as the "official" Chinese state, the reality was that Xixia, Liao, and Dali were also heirs of the Tang civilization, and they were all locked in military and political struggles for dominance against each other.

By mentioning only Song's military actions and presenting it as aggressive, you are deliberately trying to fan nationalism among the posters here.
 

Crang

New Member
Registered Member
I said in my original post (AKA shanghai) as an example. My original meaning was Yangzte river valley which composes Shanghai, southern Jiangxu, Hubei and also Jiangxi. Even Sichuan can be considerer Yangtze river valley.

And don't worry about people claiming China colonizing X or Y. Who cares what they think. Do they have power to take it from China?

If China does not have power to resist others from destroying them or subjugating them, then China will end. If Vietnam does not have the power to resist China from taking over. Then Vietnam will end. This is the way the world works. If you are strong you live, if you are weak then you become history.

China was already on the verge of destruction when Japanese tried to take over. But that was not the first. Mongols and Manchus were also capable of destroying the Chinese people. But they instead became Chinese because of the power of China's civilization.
No, I'm just trying to set the record straight. Don't talk about politics here, we're trying to get the historical facts right. So don't use examples carelessly. I mean, look Copenhagen is linked to Malmo, hence Copenhagen is a part of southern Sweden?? Use your examples correctly, otherwise people will misread your writing.
 

Top