China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?


tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes but even among young people in China, they have no interest in expanding. Seriously. Go talk to them. There is seriously no discourse on expanding China's territory. Even among old people, they wanted to learn the technology of the West and not its social values. It's like how they admire Kpop and BTS and Japan's 高素质 or politeness culture, without wanting them to be transplanted into China. If you spend time on Chinese forums, there's a lot of critique of Korean materialist culture and Japanese fake or tatemae culture. I mean, sure there are Chinese like Liu Xiaobo (yes that guy) who wanted China to worship the West, but Western worshippers are actually a minority in China, and those people are a little otaku in my experience.

As I said, you are what you grow up in. The current generation still live in a poor and weak China. That's what they know. They don't live in a China that is 3 times bigger than US in GDP and has the best and biggest military in the world. If China achieves that level of power, the new generation born in say 2060 will not be as humble as today's generation. Their desire will be different.

If you believe in realist theory you must think not in 10 years term. You must think in terms of 100s, thousands of years. You have to look at the big picture.

What is the big picture. The big picture is that China used to be a tiny civilization that was limited to the yellow river valley. What is considered southern China now, AKA Shanghai used to be the homeland of Vietnamese and Thai people. Chinese people expanded their power, they were better than their neighbors. And they slowly expanded and controlled them, kicked them out, assimilated them. The evidence of these expansions are present in Chinese DNA.


I think China and Chinese people are one of the most successful and powerful people in history. They are not done expanding. Can you imagine a future 500 years from now where Australia is Chinese land full of Chinese people and all the white Australians kicked out or assimilated and speaking Chinese?

Yes, that kind of future is possible if China continues to be powerful and rest of the world becomes weak and easy to exploit. I can imagine a future where Chinese people dominate not just East Asia. But they are the dominant people in many other parts of the world. Just like how Europeans did.

And even Europeans are not the original inhabitants of Europe. If you know history, Indo-European language family has original homeland in central Asia. They expanded into India and also expanded into Europe. This same group speaking a single language came to dominate so much land.

History is full of groups and people expanding or dying. Some groups become very successful and expand their land and influence in huge areas. Some are so unlucky that they get assimilated or even completely destroyed.

I think China and Chinese people are a group that have so many advantages that they will expand much much more. They will dominate entire East Asia. can I be wrong? Sure. But that is what future historians will find out 500 years from now.
 

Crang

Senior Member
Registered Member
As I said, you are what you grow up in. The current generation still live in a poor and weak China. That's what they know. They don't live in a China that is 3 times bigger than US in GDP and has the best and biggest military in the world. If China achieves that level of power, the new generation born in say 2060 will not be as humble as today's generation. Their desire will be different.

If you believe in realist theory you must think not in 10 years term. You must think in terms of 100s, thousands of years. You have to look at the big picture.

What is the big picture. The big picture is that China used to be a tiny civilization that was limited to the yellow river valley. What is considered southern China now, AKA Shanghai used to be the homeland of Vietnamese and Thai people. Chinese people expanded their power, they were better than their neighbors. And they slowly expanded and controlled them, kicked them out, assimilated them. The evidence of these expansions are present in Chinese DNA.


I think China and Chinese people are one of the most successful and powerful people in history. They are not done expanding. Can you imagine a future 500 years from now where Australia is Chinese land full of Chinese people and all the white Australians kicked out or assimilated and speaking Chinese?

Yes, that kind of future is possible if China continues to be powerful and rest of the world becomes weak and easy to exploit. I can imagine a future where Chinese people dominate not just East Asia. But they are the dominant people in many other parts of the world. Just like how Europeans did.

And even Europeans are not the original inhabitants of Europe. If you know history, Indo-European language family has original homeland in central Asia. They expanded into India and also expanded into Europe. This same group speaking a single language came to dominate so much land.

History is full of groups and people expanding or dying. Some groups become very successful and expand their land and influence in huge areas. Some are so unlucky that they get assimilated or even completely destroyed.

I think China and Chinese people are a group that have so many advantages that they will expand much much more. They will dominate entire East Asia. can I be wrong? Sure. But that is what future historians will find out 500 years from now.

Sorry but Shanghai was never home to Viet and Tai peoples. You're talking about Guangdong. Shanghai is on the northern end of southern China, similar to Washington DC's status as strafing both realms. That's why Shanghainese are not regarded as being as 南方人, or southerner, as more southern provinces. If you look at thousand of years, that's not realist thinking, that's wishful thinking. That's for historians to find out, sure, but not for realists to plan for.

This whole white Australians being kicked out of Australia is a very European thing to say, as seen you're from Sweden. This kind of thing is left for Aboriginals to decide. Maybe you're a white guy who wants white people kicked out of Australia LOL? Really if white people get kicked out of Australia, that's left for aboriginal Australians to decide, not any of us.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sorry but Shanghai was never home to Viet and Tai peoples. You're talking about Guangdong. Shanghai is on the northern end of southern China, similar to Washington DC's status as strafing both realms. That's why Shanghainese are not regarded as being as 南方人, or southerner, as more southern provinces. If you look at thousand of years, that's not realist thinking, that's wishful thinking. That's for historians to find out, sure, but not for realists to plan for.

This whole white Australians being kicked out of Australia is a very European thing to say, as seen you're from Sweden. This kind of thing is left for Aboriginals to decide. Maybe you're a white guy who wants white people kicked out of Australia LOL?

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History is much more complicated than you think. Many researcher consider original homeland of Austrasiatic people to be Yangtze river valley and some even consider it to be Sichuan Basin.

Do you know what is the original homeland of the Han Chinese? They belong to Sino-Tibetan Language group. Which means their original homeland is probably around Gansu.

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" There have been a range of proposals for the Sino-Tibetan
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, reflecting the uncertainty about the classification of the family and its time depth.
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(1991) places it in the eastern part of the
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around 4000 BC, with the various groups migrating out down the
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Crang

Senior Member
Registered Member
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.

History is much more complicated than you think. Many researcher consider original homeland of Austrasiatic people to be Yangtze river valley and some even consider it to be Sichuan Basin.

Do you know what is the original homeland of the Han Chinese? They belong to Sino-Tibetan Language group. Which means their original homeland is probably around Gansu.

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" There have been a range of proposals for the Sino-Tibetan
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, reflecting the uncertainty about the classification of the family and its time depth.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(1991) places it in the eastern part of the
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around 4000 BC, with the various groups migrating out down the
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,
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,
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,
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and
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rivers "

No but when China expanded, those Tai and Viet peoples were no longer in the Shanghai region. Hence they were not kicked out. The peope who were kicked out were not Tai and Viet peoples. That is if they were there. It is more plausible that they were in Pearl River Delta and not the Yangtze River.

Also the majority of scholarship is still that Tai and Viet peoples were south of Yangtze River.

Furthermore, proto Austroasiatic from what I know is not the same as Tai and Viet. Tai and Viet as Austroasiatic, not proto Austroasiatic.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
No but when China expanded, those Tai and Viet peoples were no longer in the Shanghai region. Hence they were not kicked out. The peope who were kicked out were not Tai and Viet peoples. That is if they were there. It is more plausible that they were in Pearl River Delta and not the Yangtze River.

Also the majority of scholarship is still that Tai and Viet peoples were south of Yangtze River.

Lol, I get it man. Its uncomfortable for you to think that Chinese people could "kick" people out. You are just tied to the general morality that's all. But all I can say is, we live in world of "natural selection". All the large nations in the world became large by kicking out, assimilating and subjugating the original inhabitants of those places.

Even Humans themselves came from Africa and kicked out Homo Erectus and Neanderthals.
 

Crang

Senior Member
Registered Member
No but when China expanded, those Tai and Viet peoples were no longer in the Shanghai region. Hence they were not kicked out. The peope who were kicked out were not Tai and Viet peoples. That is if they were there. It is more plausible that they were in Pearl River Delta and not the Yangtze River.

Also the majority of scholarship is still that Tai and Viet peoples were south of Yangtze River.

Furthermore, proto Austroasiatic from what I know is not the same as Tai and Viet. Tai and Viet as Austroasiatic, not proto Austroasiatic.

Even in the unlikely scenario Tai and Viet ancestors were in Shanghai, Tai and Viet peoples themselves were not in Shanghai
 

Crang

Senior Member
Registered Member
Lol, I get it man. Its uncomfortable for you to think that Chinese people could "kick" people out. You are just tied to the general morality that's all. But all I can say is, we live in world of "natural selection". All the large nations in the world became large by kicking out, assimilating and subjugating the original inhabitants of those places.

Even Humans themselves came from Africa and kicked out Homo Erectus and Neanderthals.
No, I'm saying people were kicked out, but not Viet and Tai peoples. The people kicked out were not the same as Viet and Tai peoples.
 

Crang

Senior Member
Registered Member
No, I'm saying people were kicked out, but not Viet and Tai peoples. The people kicked out were not the same as Viet and Tai peoples.

I was struggling to come up with the term, and I found it. Yue or Baiyue. The Yue people were in that region, not Tai or Viet peoples. Vietnam literally means south of Yue (yuenan). So it's not Viet people you were referring to, but Yue people who were kicked out. Actually some were kicked out, some married in.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
No but when China expanded, those Tai and Viet peoples were no longer in the Shanghai region. Hence they were not kicked out. The peope who were kicked out were not Tai and Viet peoples. That is if they were there. It is more plausible that they were in Pearl River Delta and not the Yangtze River.

Also the majority of scholarship is still that Tai and Viet peoples were south of Yangtze River.

Lol, I get it man. Its uncomfortable for you to think that Chinese people could "kick" people out. You are just tied to the general morality that's all. But all I can say is, we live in world of "natural selection". All the large nations in the world became large by kicking out, assimilating and subjugating the original inhabitants of those places.

Even Humans themselves came from Africa and kicked out Homo Erec
I was struggling to come up with the term, and I found it. Yue or Baiyue. The Yue people were in that region, not Tai or Viet peoples. Vietnam literally means south of Yue (yuenan). So it's not Viet people you were referring to, but Yue people who were kicked out. Actually some were kicked out, some married in.

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What do you think about this map? Yap, it shows the Tai-Kadai language people that are now left in China. There are still Tai-Kadai people in Yangtze region. They live in the hilly areas now. All the flat land was ofcourse taken by the Han people.


So, the ancestors of the Tai people were kicked out of Yangtze region. Now you could say they are not the same as modern Thai and Zhuang people. But they are the descendants.


And talking Yue people, Do you know what is the name of Vietnam in Chinese? Yuenan :)

Chinese people still call the country Yuenan, which probably means land of the Yue people of something like that. Yue people are the ancestors of Vietnamese and Cambodians and many other Austroasiatic ethnic groups.
 

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