China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?


jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is conditioning on both sides. The US has traditionally been more sophisticated at this than PRC, but the latter are catching up.

Access to "sensitive" historical records was never allowed. Even some records from the 19th century, like the archives of the Chinese Maritime Customs Service were denied. And with the advent of the campaign against "historical nihilism" things have become much more difficult for foreign historians:
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Besides, the West does have a tradition of writing history to attack their adversary, starting all the way from Herodotus. Even as the West is right now using their propaganda machine and education system to gradually downplay and eventually wipe out the USSR's contribution to the defeat of the Axis. And they are doing this under the disguise of "academic freedom". Campaign against historical nihilism is essential and important in preventing politically motivated academics turning into total historical revisionists.
 

nugroho

Junior Member
But but in the ebb and flow of history China is eternal and the periphery come and go And where is Xixia now? gone But China is still there! It is just one episode of Chinese history! Like they say one battle does not decide the outcome of the war! China did achieve 3 golden eras after Song the Yuan, Ming and Qing
Song is in today China territory, but Xixia is too right???
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
And the current China actually inherited what I call the Northern Tradition, which lineated from Han, Tang, Liao, Jin, Mongol Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasty. The structure of the Current China is a northern multi-ethnic multi-cultural empire, instead of a Han-centric small regional power.

Today's Chinese culture has a good balance between the pure and unique Han culture, non-Han culture, and foreign culture. This is something that dynasties like Eastern Jin (东晋), the Southern dynasties (南朝, aka, 宋、齐、梁、陈),or Song (赵宋) never had.

The divide between the northern and the southern dynasties are not just domain of control of territories, it is also a societal difference. Northern dynasties are multi-cultural, open-minded, martial, love for exploration. The Southern dynasties are Han-centric, sophisticated, frail, dainty, Xenophobic, and love for art and entertainment culture.
The Japanese of the 19th century saw China progressively more barbarized since the collapse of the Song. What you consider as strength, Japanese imperialists sought to exploit as a weakness.

There is a telling passage in the Book of Tea by Kazuko Okakura:
"Unfortunately the sudden outburst of the Mongol tribes in the thirteenth century which resulted in the devastation and conquest of China under the barbaric rule of the Yuen Emperors, destroyed all the fruits of Sung culture. The native dynasty of the Mings which attempted renationalisation in the middle of the fifteenth century was harassed by internal troubles, and China again fell under the alien rule of the Manchus in the seventeenth century. Manners and customs changed to leave no vestige of the former times. The powdered tea is entirely forgotten. We find a Ming commentator at loss to recall the shape of the tea whisk mentioned in one of the Sung classics. Tea is now taken by steeping the leaves in hot water in a bowl or cup. The reason why the Western world is innocent of the older method of drinking tea is explained by the fact that Europe knew it only at the close of the Ming dynasty."

To the Japanese, Hua has fallen to the Yi. They looked at Qing with disdain and considered it "degenerate". Chinese students in Japan were accosted in the streets as "Chanchanbotsu", lit. "a slave with a tail". They justified their wars against the Qing as "liberation of the oppressed" and a mission to restore Huaxia. The early Chinese nationalists educated in Japan were strongly influenced by these sentiments. The slogan of the Tongmenghui was: 驅除韃虜, 恢復中華, 創立民國, 平均地權

Even in modern time, Japanese historians view the Qing, Yuan, Jin and Liao as foreign occupations.
 
Last edited:

TerrestrialJoe

Just Hatched
Registered Member
So I'm entirely sure this is in line with the thread. But its a youtube video covering early chinese strategy towards the nomads.

Another video on the strategy of the Yuan-Song conflict.

Now i don't how accurate he is, so if anyone is knowledgeable about the subjects I'd like your viewpoint.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
The Japanese of the 19th century saw China progressively more barbarized since the collapse of the Song. What you consider as strength, Japanese imperialists sought to exploit as a weakness.

There is a telling passage in the Book of Tea by Kazuko Okakura:
"Unfortunately the sudden outburst of the Mongol tribes in the thirteenth century which resulted in the devastation and conquest of China under the barbaric rule of the Yuen Emperors, destroyed all the fruits of Sung culture. The native dynasty of the Mings which attempted renationalisation in the middle of the fifteenth century was harassed by internal troubles, and China again fell under the alien rule of the Manchus in the seventeenth century. Manners and customs changed to leave no vestige of the former times. The powdered tea is entirely forgotten. We find a Ming commentator at loss to recall the shape of the tea whisk mentioned in one of the Sung classics. Tea is now taken by steeping the leaves in hot water in a bowl or cup. The reason why the Western world is innocent of the older method of drinking tea is explained by the fact that Europe knew it only at the close of the Ming dynasty."

To the Japanese, Hua has fallen to the Yi. They looked at Qing with disdain and considered it "degenerate". Chinese students in Japan were accosted in the streets as "Chanchanbotsu", lit. "a slave with a tail". They justified their wars against the Qing as "liberation of the oppressed" and a mission to restore Huaxia. The early Chinese nationalists educated in Japan were strongly influenced by these sentiments. The slogan of the Tongmenghui was: 驅除韃虜, 恢復中華, 創立民國, 平均地權

Even in modern time, Japanese historians view the Qing, Yuan, Jin and Liao as foreign occupations.

I don't buy that. China today can thanks the Mongol and the Manchu for maintaining and enlarging Chinese territory. China indigenous culture never disappear Take the mongol Kublai Khan is educated by the Chinese tutor and well versed in Chinese literature and history He founded what is now known as Beijing opera and built theater all over Beijing to popularize the beijing opera. I would say the infusion of energetic Nomad blood invigorate the Chinese nation that is why they last so long Thru the history the Han always absorb foreign culture and blood eg Chu, Wu(Hubei, Anhui), Yue(Fujian south Zhejiang), Lingnam(Guangdong, Guangxi)
A lot of genetic disease are cause by inbreeding having diversity in DNA ward of those disease

He even fight his own brother Arieq Khan exactly because He left the mongol way of life and adopt Chinese culture and way of life Some of the great Mancu emperor like Qianlong and Kangshi are great lover of Chinese culture

Kublai had access to supplies from the fertile lands of China, while Ariq Böke had to import resources to Karakorum in the semi-arid steppes.
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Kublai Khan depended on these supplies from China and therefore needed Chinese popular support to win the civil war.
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Kublai ingratiated himself to his subjects with the help of his Chinese advisers. He presented himself as a sage emperor capable of uniting the Chinese, Korean and his fellow Mongols. While calling out Ariq Böke as a destructive usurper.
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Kublai promised to reduce taxes, modeled his government institutions to resemble those of the Chinese dynasties, and adopted the
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of Zhongtong, which means "moderate rule".
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His policies were popular in northern China, but had no impact on his relations with the Southern Song. The Song invaded while Kublai was preoccupied with the civil war, and recovered territory previously lost to the Mongols.
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Kublai dispatched a diplomat, Hao Jing, to discuss the prospects of a peaceful resolution to the war with the Southern Song. The Song, however, rejected Kublai's overtures and imprisoned Hao for the next decade.
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Last edited:

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Japanese of the 19th century saw China progressively more barbarized since the collapse of the Song. What you consider as strength, Japanese imperialists sought to exploit as a weakness.

There is a telling passage in the Book of Tea by Kazuko Okakura:
"Unfortunately the sudden outburst of the Mongol tribes in the thirteenth century which resulted in the devastation and conquest of China under the barbaric rule of the Yuen Emperors, destroyed all the fruits of Sung culture. The native dynasty of the Mings which attempted renationalisation in the middle of the fifteenth century was harassed by internal troubles, and China again fell under the alien rule of the Manchus in the seventeenth century. Manners and customs changed to leave no vestige of the former times. The powdered tea is entirely forgotten. We find a Ming commentator at loss to recall the shape of the tea whisk mentioned in one of the Sung classics. Tea is now taken by steeping the leaves in hot water in a bowl or cup. The reason why the Western world is innocent of the older method of drinking tea is explained by the fact that Europe knew it only at the close of the Ming dynasty."

To the Japanese, Hua has fallen to the Yi. They looked at Qing with disdain and considered it "degenerate". Chinese students in Japan were accosted in the streets as "Chanchanbotsu", lit. "a slave with a tail". They justified their wars against the Qing as "liberation of the oppressed" and a mission to restore Huaxia. The early Chinese nationalists educated in Japan were strongly influenced by these sentiments. The slogan of the Tongmenghui was: 驅除韃虜, 恢復中華, 創立民國, 平均地權

Even in modern time, Japanese historians view the Qing, Yuan, Jin and Liao as foreign occupations.

Japanese history academia has always been very Han-centric.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't buy that. China today can thanks the Mongol and the Manchu for maintaining and enlarging Chinese territory. China indigenous culture never disappear Take the mongol Kublai Khan is educated by the Chinese tutor and well versed in Chinese literature and history He founded what is now known as Beijing opera and built theater all over Beijing to popularize the beijing opera. I would say the infusion of energetic Nomad blood invigorate the Chinese nation that is why they last so long Thru the history the Han always absorb foreign culture and blood eg Chu, Wu(Hubei, Anhui), Yue(Fujian south Zhejiang), Lingnam(Guangdong, Guangxi)
A lot of genetic disease are cause by inbreeding having diversity in DNA ward of those disease

He even fight his own brother Arieq Khan exactly because He left the mongol way of life and adopt Chinese culture and way of life Some of the great Mancu emperor like Qianlong and Kangshi are great lover of Chinese culture

Kublai had access to supplies from the fertile lands of China, while Ariq Böke had to import resources to Karakorum in the semi-arid steppes.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Kublai Khan depended on these supplies from China and therefore needed Chinese popular support to win the civil war.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Kublai ingratiated himself to his subjects with the help of his Chinese advisers. He presented himself as a sage emperor capable of uniting the Chinese, Korean and his fellow Mongols. While calling out Ariq Böke as a destructive usurper.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Kublai promised to reduce taxes, modeled his government institutions to resemble those of the Chinese dynasties, and adopted the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of Zhongtong, which means "moderate rule".
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
His policies were popular in northern China, but had no impact on his relations with the Southern Song. The Song invaded while Kublai was preoccupied with the civil war, and recovered territory previously lost to the Mongols.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Kublai dispatched a diplomat, Hao Jing, to discuss the prospects of a peaceful resolution to the war with the Southern Song. The Song, however, rejected Kublai's overtures and imprisoned Hao for the next decade.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Much more than just land mass. Nomads, as well as non-Han ethnic groups has a very important place in Chinese history. Many nomad groups has great civilizational achievement that is even not possible for Han-Chinese to achieve. For example, the Khitan Liao was the first stable multi-cultural empire that achieves long lasting stability. They are the people broke the long saying of "胡无百年治” (Barbarians can not achieve more than a hundred years of stable and harmonious dynastical-rule).
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Much more than just land mass. Nomads, as well as non-Han ethnic groups has a very important place in Chinese history. Many nomad groups has great civilizational achievement that is even not possible for Han-Chinese to achieve. For example, the Khitan Liao was the first stable multi-cultural empire that achieves long lasting stability. They are the people broke the long saying of "胡无百年治” (Barbarians can not achieve more than a hundred years of stable and harmonious dynastical-rule).
No such thing as Han even in Tang dynasty. The Tang the height of Chinese civilization that the Japanese copied so much of... Are partially Kyrgyz.

The Tang took over from Sui who took over from Zhou, the last of the northern and southern dynasties. In case anyone don't know, the northern and southern dynasties are founded not by Han, but by the Hu who basically became Chinese and got incorporate into Chinese proper. The later Liao, Jin, mongol and Manchu are all just following in the Hu's footsteps. The Han is a big melting pot, just the bar the Chinese use and Japanese use to measure "Chinese was" is different
 

solarz

Brigadier
No such thing as Han even in Tang dynasty. The Tang the height of Chinese civilization that the Japanese copied so much of... Are partially Kyrgyz.

The Tang took over from Sui who took over from Zhou, the last of the northern and southern dynasties. In case anyone don't know, the northern and southern dynasties are founded not by Han, but by the Hu who basically became Chinese and got incorporate into Chinese proper. The later Liao, Jin, mongol and Manchu are all just following in the Hu's footsteps. The Han is a big melting pot, just the bar the Chinese use and Japanese use to measure "Chinese was" is different

The State of Qin used to be considered to be barbarians by the other states... until they up and went and conquered the whole country and became the First Emperor.
 

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