China's Anti-Access ASBM Strategy [Defense News]

SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Hendrik_2000 said:
That is the civilian research I bet the military research is more advance.But I don't think the Chinese military is stupid enough that they deploy the missile without resolving the communication hurdle.

Because they don't reveal doesn't mean they don't exist. I put up the article to show that it is not impossible to communicate thru the plasma. The article doesn't say anything if it a concept . It show one way of communicating thru the plasma.
Like any other scientific paper it only show concept It doesn't show the detail or procedure .That is secret. patent
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It's only a possibility which may or may not work. They would have announced testing a proof of concept since if it really worked it will be useful in various civilian applications as well as military.

Hendrik_2000 said:
or the resonance to work, the thickness of the matched layer and the plasma sheath must be smaller than the wavelength of the electromagnetic waves used to communicate, so the approach would be ineffective if the antenna frequency were too high, Gao noted.
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This part is another problem that would be difficult to overcome basically it means at mid mach numbers where speed is only around mach 10 the plasma sheath would be small making high frequency SAT communication impossible.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
SamuraiBlue said:
It's only a possibility which may or may not work. They would have announced testing a proof of concept since if it really worked it will be useful in various civilian applications as well as military.



This part is another problem that would be difficult to overcome basically it means at mid mach numbers where speed is only around mach 10 the plasma sheath would be small making high frequency SAT communication impossible.
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Yeah you quote out of context and leave the important part Here I highlight . From the sound of it they already build the equipment. And how they supposed to do the research without building the test equipment doesn't make sense

The properties of the plasma sheath can change during flight, but Gao and his colleagues believe their matched layer can adjust for these changes if it is made from a material whose electromagnetic properties can be tuned with an electrical signal.


"We don’t need to know exactly the properties of the plasma layer, but we need to know the ranges for these properties. The matched layer will be adjusted by an automatic control system, so we only need to know the ranges to make sure this whole system can work appropriately," Gao said.


The team is not the first to try to solve the communication blackout problem, but their approach has advantages over other attempts. For example, the equipment needed to implement the matched layer is much lighter than the equipment required by other methods, such as trying to control the electrons in the plasma with an applied magnetic field, or injecting a liquid into the plasma to reduce its electron density. The matched layer approach also doesn't rely on a particular shape of vehicle to work, doesn't consume additional energy and can adapt to changes of the plasma sheath.
 
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SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Hendrik_2000 said:
Yeah you quote out of context and leave the important part Here I highlight . From the sound of it they already build the equipment

The properties of the plasma sheath can change during flight, but Gao and his colleagues believe their matched layer can adjust for these changes if it is made from a material whose electromagnetic properties can be tuned with an electrical signal.


"We don’t need to know exactly the properties of the plasma layer, but we need to know the ranges for these properties. The matched layer will be adjusted by an automatic control system, so we only need to know the ranges to make sure this whole system can work appropriately," Gao said.


The team is not the first to try to solve the communication blackout problem, but their approach has advantages over other attempts. For example, the equipment needed to implement the matched layer is much lighter than the equipment required by other methods, such as trying to control the electrons in the plasma with an applied magnetic field, or injecting a liquid into the plasma to reduce its electron density. The matched layer approach also doesn't rely on a particular shape of vehicle to work, doesn't consume additional energy and can adapt to changes of the plasma sheath.
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The part you quoted doesn't change a thing about the problem he stated in terms of amount of plasma against the frequency.

What he is stating is that plasma sheath may vary becoming thicker or thinner due to atmospheric conditions and his method can compensate automatically retuning the amount within the conductor so transmission will not be severed completely this does not mean nor does he attempt to retract the fact that "plasma sheath must be smaller than the wavelength of the electromagnetic waves used to communicate".
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
SamuraiBlue said:
The part you quoted doesn't change a thing about the problem he stated in terms of amount of plasma against the frequency.

What he is stating is that plasma sheath may vary becoming thicker or thinner due to atmospheric conditions and his method can compensate automatically retuning the amount within the conductor so transmission will not be severed completely this does not mean nor does he attempt to retract the fact that "plasma sheath must be smaller than the wavelength of the electromagnetic waves used to communicate".
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And why is that a problem ? there are different wave length you can use to communicate Choose the right one. I know you can deconstruct any wave with Fourier analysis
 
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SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Hendrik_2000 said:
And why is that a problem ? there are different wave length you can use to communicate Choose the right one
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The problem is SAT communication are at very high frequencies due to the size of the antenna they use so no GPS making it impossible to target something that is moving since the missile itself doesn't know it's own location.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
SamuraiBlue said:
The problem is SAT communication are at very high frequencies due to the size of the antenna they use so no GPS making it impossible to target something that is moving since the missile itself doesn't know it's own location.
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Carrier move at very low speed of 30 knot/hr is practically stationary when compare to the Missile speed of Mach 10. So how far can the carrier move in 30 second?.
As you just said using Prof Gao method just hypothetically, they can communicate with GPS sat that will update the location of carrier
 
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Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

Captain
Hendrik_2000 said:
Carrier move at very low speed of 30 knot/hr is practically stationary when compare to the Missile speed of Mach 10. So how far can the carrier move in 30 second?.
As you just said using Prof Gao method just hypothetically, they can communicate with GPS sat that will update the location of carrier
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30 knots means 56 km/h or roughly 16 m/s. So in 30 seconds the carrier in a straight dash would have moved 480 m (Thats nearly 1/2 km) or less but in whatever direction it chooses, performing evasive maneuvers and employing counter measures. So if it is a hit-to-kill, precision strike, a mach 7+ kill vehicle will have a very small window to correct its trajectory after re-entry. It is simply about the extreme warhead speed that gives it a very narrow window especially at mach 10.The Pershing-II had to perform a velocity control maneuver to slow down the RV after reentry, and that is for a fixed target at a CEP of 30 m. Hitting the carrier is not impossible, but even the slightest calculation error and the warhead hits the water. But if it is a fragmentation warhead and only needs to cause enough damage to prevent aircrafts from taking-off of the carrier, that is a different story. I assume multiple salvos of ASBM will have to be fired at a single carrier. If the carrier is unable deploy its aircraft, then its useless just shrunk to nearly '0'.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Hyperwarp said:
30 knots means 56 km/h or roughly 16 m/s. So in 30 seconds the carrier in a straight dash would have moved 480 m (Thats nearly 1/2 km) or less but in whatever direction it chooses, performing evasive maneuvers and employing counter measures. So if it is a hit-to-kill, precision strike, a mach 7+ kill vehicle will have a very small window to correct its trajectory after re-entry. It is simply about the extreme warhead speed that gives it a very narrow window especially at mach 10.The Pershing-II had to perform a velocity control maneuver to slow down the RV after reentry, and that is for a fixed target at a CEP of 30 m. Hitting the carrier is not impossible, but even the slightest calculation error and the warhead hits the water. But if it is a fragmentation warhead and only needs to cause enough damage to prevent aircrafts from taking-off of the carrier, that is a different story. I assume multiple salvos of ASBM will have to be fired at a single carrier. If the carrier is unable deploy its aircraft, then its useless just shrunk to nearly '0'.
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33 years has been passed between Pershing II and DF 21 D and during this time you think that advances is sensor, micro thruster,on board computer,control technology, etc stops?

DF 21D will likely have on board sensor to do the last minute correction and using their micro thruster they can make adjustment.

How good is China technology in this area ? Well if we use Shenzou docking maneuver with Tiangong I as yardstick, If my memory serve me right, they have the accuracy of 2 cm .

It is the same high speed micro thruster control as DF 21D.

People keep doubting the ability of DF 21 D to maneuver. But the world has plenty of mach 4 or mach 5 Missile that can hit ship at 300km distance with no problem like Brahmo, YJ 12, etc.
Ok they have short window of opportunity. But the processing speed of modern day computer is thousand time more powerful than 1980 tech and so do other sensor as well.

Not to mention that China has successfully launched 8 Hypersonic missile
 
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FORBIN

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
SamuraiBlue said:
On board sensors? radar? IR? Both would be blinded by plasma.
Yeah, that would work.LoL
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Even if DF-21D is operationnal nothing prove can reach a target with a good reliability only eventually capable...reading several articles all say it.

Let' s him talk alone in bold...;):D
 
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